Remind me again why people don't like the wheelman.

[gaghiel42]

Every once in a while people bring up the fact that wheelmen are too specific and not as useful as some of the other classes, and I was curious why this was again.  I know there are a few old threads a while ago about it, but I figured I should just start a new one than go digging.

The recent thread about a guy having troubles with his hacker reminded me about it.  In my experience, the wheelman is an invaluable member of the team and I wouldn't be without him.  So, whats the scoop?

[Desertpuma]

I have always supported a wheelman on the team because driving may be his primary focus but his skill set allows him to be so many more things than a chauffeur or vehicle chase specialist.

[Morgenstern]

I'll tell you why designers don't like him: He's been given niche protection for an activity that's not niche.

When a fight breaks out the Soldier may be the god-king of whupass, but everyone has something interesting/unique to contribute.

When a chase breaks out... you sit back and watch the Wheelman win it.

When it comes to adapting blockbuster movie spies you end up always having to take levels in Wheelman, because good spies GET AWAY when somebody starts chasing them. That's a sign the wheelman is too good at a core activity.

Solid proficiency in getting away should not take an investment of class levels. Its an essential skill for espionage types, and the weight of accquisition should be more deeply rooted in the skills with feat support rather than skills with class ability support creating such a steep gradient between the haves and the have nots that there is no point for many builds to even attempt to contest with a wheelman.

I lookforward to a Wheelman Specialty that is actually a wheelman, and then maybe some specialized expert classes for various vehicle types, but as a base class, breaking vehicle skills and escape/pursuit skills out to be something any class can pick up with less of an investment does a lot of good for the environment.


 

[Desertpuma]

I look forward to a Wheelman Specialty that is actually a wheelman, and then maybe some specialized expert classes for various vehicle types, but as a base class, breaking vehicle skills and escape/pursuit skills out to be something any class can pick up with less of an investment does a lot of good for the environment.

These Specialties already exist though in 2.0 and the Wheelman is the only class, with the exception of the Scientist having a shot at it, of being able to gain every focus of Drive without munching other focuses to do it.

[gaghiel42]

Ahha, so its more of a "this class is too good at this one thing that its a detriment to the others" sort of problem and less of a "this class isnt good enough at other stuff to be remotely useful" sorta thing.

I guess I can see that when you put it that way.  I was always curious why people thought they were subpar classes.

[Morgenstern]

These Specialties already exist though in 2.0 and the Wheelman is the only class, with the exception of the Scientist having a shot at it, of being able to gain every focus of Drive without munching other focuses to do it.

Which is describing a problem with the system, not a reason to preserve the wheelman.

[gaghiel42]

So, you would rather the wheelman be a feat tree or a talent/specialty or something along those lines instead?  I always kinda felt that the wheelman was the Ranger of the Spycraft world.  they're really good at what they do, and if they are in that situation, they should be the best, but when not in that situation, it's still a decent class with a wide range of features that he can use when the need arises.

Wouldn't it be easier to just pull out a few of their features and give them some more broad stroke abilities not car focused than scrapping the whole class?  I've always found it hard to require someone to take special feats specifically for car stuff if they don't want it.  Making a whole new tree would just make that pool of abilities even less taken wouldn't it?  I dunno.  Just trying to wrap my head around the whole thing still.

When a chase breaks out... you sit back and watch the Wheelman win it.

  I've seen scientists who've schooled wheelmen at chases and stuff.  I think the Wheelman just can make a chase look easy now and again.  There are a lot of contributing factors... *shrug*

[Desertpuma]

When a chase breaks out... you sit back and watch the Wheelman win it.

  I've seen scientists who've schooled wheelmen at chases and stuff.  I think the Wheelman just can make a chase look easy now and again.  There are a lot of contributing factors... *shrug*

I agree, Charlie. I've seen foot chases where Martial Artist and Explorers have schooled everyone including the Wheelman. The class just represents the best chance of having the ability to master the chase. Loosening or broadening some class abilities may be a good idea. As Charlie pointed out above, it is still a good general class with a solid skill set that allows you to get away with improvised driving of vehicles in some cases.

[TheTSKoala]

Right all around.  To go with what Morgenstern leaded with. 

I'll tell you why designers don't like him: He's been given niche protection for an activity that's not niche.

When a fight breaks out the Soldier may be the god-king of whupass, but everyone has something interesting/unique to contribute.

When a chase breaks out... you sit back and watch the Wheelman win it.

When it comes to adapting blockbuster movie spies you end up always having to take levels in Wheelman, because good spies GET AWAY when somebody starts chasing them. That's a sign the wheelman is too good at a core activity.

Solid proficiency in getting away should not take an investment of class levels. Its an essential skill for espionage types, and the weight of accquisition should be more deeply rooted in the skills with feat support rather than skills with class ability support creating such a steep gradient between the haves and the have nots that there is no point for many builds to even attempt to contest with a wheelman.

I look forward to a Wheelman Specialty that is actually a wheelman, and then maybe some specialized expert classes for various vehicle types, but as a base class, breaking vehicle skills and escape/pursuit skills out to be something any class can pick up with less of an investment does a lot of good for the environment.

It's the "sit back / I've got this" class that can sometimes just draw the fun out of the chase.  Don't get me wrong, when my players want a Wheelman, times of fun are had.  However, if there's a car chase, typically, it's everyone looking at the wheelman, the wheelman looking at, me looking at the wheelman, until the chase is done.  Can another class match him in Driving ability?  Sure.  Is it worth?  Typically not. 

[Psion]

I'll tell you why designers don't like him: He's been given niche protection for an activity that's not niche.

When a fight breaks out the Soldier may be the god-king of whupass, but everyone has something interesting/unique to contribute.

When a chase breaks out... you sit back and watch the Wheelman win it.

When it comes to adapting blockbuster movie spies you end up always having to take levels in Wheelman, because good spies GET AWAY when somebody starts chasing them. That's a sign the wheelman is too good at a core activity.

I don't see why this is a problem in a home game. I can see why that would be a problem in LSpy, where everyone plays the same adventure. But in homegames... PCs > NPCs. Any PC with drive as a class skill can use the chase rules, and if you design an NPC that can whup them, it's because you mean for them to lose. Otherwise you don't throw uber wheelman NPCs in a game unless you have uber wheelman PCs.

Yes, I believe in archetype-driven adventure design. Indeed, if I didn't, I don't think I'd like class based games as much. Indeed, I'd think Spycraft 2.0 has too many classes if you didn't write the adventure to the PCs. I think of adventures in terms of MI or Global Frequency: you are EXPERTS at what you do and you were picked for this job because of who you are!

If it's an issue of time hogging... that's when you use the compressed rules. Or throw some action dice in to put the bad guys on their tails so it becomes a good idea to SHOOT.

Now I'd agree based on inspiration, the wheelman is less a compulsory archetype than hacker is, but if the player wants to play one, then he should have the opportunity. I think expert class would be okay in the case of the wheelman. My main objection here would be that I can't think of any of the other base classes that would make a good starting point.

As a class in SC 2.0, what many players miss is that the wheelman can do more than drive. Though I do think he has a bit harder time escaping his niche than the hacker does, because he doesn't have quite as many different skills to remind of other stuff to do with him. But my wheelman players have never been too shy about busting a bad guy in the chops or blaring away with a shotgun.

[Desertpuma]

As a class in SC 2.0, what many players miss is that the wheelman can do more than drive. I think he has a bit harder time escaping his niche than the hacker does, because he only has half as many skill points to give you other things to remind you he is good at.

This is a big chunk of it right here in my opinion.

[Sletchman]

The problem I've had with it is that all of his class abilities is vehicle based.  Your 2/11/19 is about the only thing that doesn't have to target a vehicle, or an aspect of the vehicle [some of your bonus chase feats are versatile, but still largely vehicle related].  This means that when you're not in the vehicle, you're a second rate soldier, with a couple more skills.  They also have a degree of conflicting interest - the best driver often doesn't drive, because he picked up Gunnery - and therefore wants to fire the vehicles turret.

[doneatrawhagis]

Make him be a Parkour as well as driver. Like Fate from Mirror's Edge or the girl from SnowCrash. Scaling buildings by hand would be nice.

[Crafty_Alex]

Interesting discussion. Morg certainly hit the core points for why the Wheelman's "endangered" not as a concept but as a class unto itself, but even more important is players' opinions:

It's the "sit back / I've got this" class that can sometimes just draw the fun out of the chase.  Don't get me wrong, when my players want a Wheelman, times of fun are had.  However, if there's a car chase, typically, it's everyone looking at the wheelman, the wheelman looking at, me looking at the wheelman, until the chase is done. 

This points to some of the catch-22 of DCon-focused classes - the Wheelman MUST be dominant in his field in order to be fun/let the player who invested levels in that specialty to do his thing, but allowing him to be dominant means the DCons lose their tension and chance for the rest of the team to participate. So whose fun do you back - the Wheelman's or everyone else's? That's a strike with the system as it currently works.

If it's an issue of time hogging... that's when you use the compressed rules. Or throw some action dice in to put the bad guys on their tails so it becomes a good idea to SHOOT.

...but pushing towards compressed rules deprives the Wheelman player of his cool, and as a GM, I hate having to say 'I know you have been waiting the entire mission for the chase, but the rest of the team doesn't want to spend a half hour resolving it, so we'll give it 5 minutes. You'll get a better chase next time.' Every time I did do that (the few times I had the guts), I felt like I kicked a puppy.

Now I'd agree based on inspiration, the wheelman is less a compulsory archetype than hacker is, but if the player wants to play one, then he should have the opportunity. I think expert class would be okay in the case of the wheelman. My main objection here would be that I can't think of any of the other base classes that would make a good starting point.

Those are all fair concerns, and "the guy who can drive really really well" will absolutely need to be represented in modern Mastercraft games. But wouldn't it be cool if you could actually build Bond the way he is in movies - a deboinair superspy who has 2-3 great chases a film - WITHOUT having to take classes in Wheelman? The chase is such an integral part of the genre, why deprive everyone of the chance to participate in it in a fufilling, genre-appropriate way unless they spend their most precious resource - class levels?

The problem I've had with it is that all of his class abilities is vehicle based.  Your 2/11/19 is about the only thing that doesn't have to target a vehicle, or an aspect of the vehicle [some of your bonus chase feats are versatile, but still largely vehicle related].  This means that when you're not in the vehicle, you're a second rate soldier, with a couple more skills.  They also have a degree of conflicting interest - the best driver often doesn't drive, because he picked up Gunnery - and therefore wants to fire the vehicles turret.

...and Turnip hits more of the problems. It's a rock and a hard place sort of thing - that wheelman must either spend his time "not being a Wheelman" by playing a second-rate Soldier or Intruder, or he's gonna sit in the car until the chase is one...which IMEX is the far more likely scenario.

Make him be a Parkour as well as driver. Like Fate from Mirror's Edge or the girl from SnowCrash. Scaling buildings by hand would be nice.

But then Wheelman's a poor choice of names

I'm not saying for certain the Wheelman is gone. But I think there are certainly places where the class is at odds with itself, the system, and with the goals of the game (a team game throughout the entire experience) at times. What is certain is there will be very close scrutiny paid to all the parts interacting with the class, and some level of significant changes made in one or more sections to make for a more fulfilling experience.

[Sletchman]

If he turns out more like his cousin the Lancer [or even the captain - who has one of his tricks] then I, for one, won't be disappointed.  Alternately it could make for a great expert class.  Take the fun bits from wheelman, add some of the bits from Transporter, and you end up with a kick ass, tightly focused specialist.

Hacker also - I loved the expert class from SFA, and was surprised he became a base class in 2.0.  It just seems too focused, like something you go into after scientist or snoop for a more specialised computational and cryptographical [is that even a word?] master.