Remind me again why people don't like the wheelman.

[gaghiel42]

*flips the switch to get the thread back on the tracks again*

So, has anyone else had actual problems or something with wheelmen aside from them not wanting to leave their vehicles and being too powerful behind the wheel vs other characters?

If we can identify the source of the problems maybe we can give Crafty something to think about.  I really like the "roads" idea and I think that could really make wheelmen fun to play and handy all the way to lv 20. (which I think is the key to a good class)  But I know there are other options out there.  Thoughts? Insight?

[TheTSKoala]

I have, even though my player loves the WM, I have huge problems with him playing one.  Namely because everything I've tried to balance DCons with him either makes everyone sit back and watch (and hope) or.. if there's more than one player vehicle, no one else can keep up with the difficulty. 

Personally.. i'd love to see something like a very 'different' (read: longer with some branches) feat tree for all the wheelman abilities. 

[gaghiel42]

I have, even though my player loves the WM, I have huge problems with him playing one.  Namely because everything I've tried to balance DCons with him either makes everyone sit back and watch (and hope) or.. if there's more than one player vehicle, no one else can keep up with the difficulty. 

So do you scale the bad guys to make up for the fact that the wheel man is so good?  Or do you go strictly by the NPC rules?  I find that the NPCs (unless they are special with PC levels) are typically bad/generic with their maneuver tests.  Especially after all of the negative modifiers that come from the DCon itself.  That leaves the NPCs at a generic stage that anyone can defeat them while leaving the wheelman to dominate the situation unmatched.

I think that the Crafty guys have said they are taking a look at the DCons themselves to resolve problems with balance.  Personally I think the dram cons need some alternate actions that bypass the actual check itself.  Basically combat maneuvers that work in a chase without needing to make opposed checks, but requiring a specific DC, vehicle standards (A/T), and lead range.  That might solve some of those problems by allowing NPCs and players to access alternate options while being chased/chasing others.

I am trying to decide what it is that makes the wheelman so much 'better' at the Chase DCon than anyone else, and right now the only answers I have are that they get access to more of the Chase feats than anyone else.  They don't get any more skill points than anyone else, they do have their core ability that lets them spend two action dice instead of one.  Vehicle Familiarity grants them up to a +4 bonus by level 16.   And the only other piece of the puzzle is that they get one caliber higher level vehicle pick at the beginning of the game than anyone else.

I could make a scientist that defeats any wheelman you could make easily enough at a chase DCon because he can get a PHD in Drive.  Pair that with taking some basic skill feats with drive and a chase feat or two and you're better than the wheelman could ever be.

[Desertpuma]

Consider also that Wheelman can be nullified by foot chases, sometimes even a good horse chase will make them suffer (and allow either the Scout or Explorer to shine possibly)

[Morgenstern]

Regular guy!!! Welcome back!!!

Yeah, but Bond isn't just supposed to be a superspy who has great chases; he's the archetype for "That's Impossible!"
(Back in 1.0, it was AFAICT impossible to build 007 without taking levels in Wheelman; did it bother folks then?)

It bothered me. That's one reason why that's impossible shifted down from 14th level gamebreaker to 10/20 in the 1st ed/2.0 shift - I wanted that sort of hijinks to be more widely distributed because Bond isn't the poster child for that's imposible - ALL action-espionage characters do it at some point during the film. It's a staple, not a game breaker.

[gaghiel42]

Well, another idea just popped up at Charlie central.  We could add a few "Backseat Driver" options for people that are involved in a chase but not actually behind the wheel.  These would be things that people could do to contribute to the chase while not needing to actually be in charge of it.   There would be Passenger options as well as secondary driver options for support vehicles involved in the chase.

For instance:
Passenger Options:
Harass: Player spends the round attacking, intimidating or otherwise flustering the other driver.  The character would make a skill/attack check to do Stress Damage to target opponent.
Spotter: Player makes a Notice check to force the opponent to Choose his DCon action and display it before their ally chooses their own action.
Morale: Player makes a resolve check to prevent stress damage given to the driver this round.  They take the damage in their place.
Change Drivers: Current Driver and Passenger of one team swap locations.  The current driver is considered to have failed his Man. Check for the round.  The lead decreases by 1 if team is prey.  The lead increases by 1 if the team is Predator.
Call in backup: Use local authorities to hinder the enemy's progress.  Opportunity to use Bureaucracy/Bluff etc to get people to join the chase outside the party

Backup Car Options:
Bodyguard: (lead = less than 3) Backup vehicle replaces primary vehicle briefly and intercepts the negative effect of one failed maneuver check that is not Lead.
Cut em Off: (lead = 2 or less)  Backup vehicle briefly exits chase to block off a potential escape or ambush route.  Negate one lead alteration.

There are a lot of options/potential for this, it just requires a little bit of thought and you'd make the Chase DCon amazing and an "all play" regardless of who/what the player is.

[Desertpuma]

Charlie ... I like these. Making players other than the Wheelman more functionally in the DCon could go a ways toward making things easier.

[gaghiel42]

The same sort of things could apply to many Dcons if you think about it.  

Hacking:  
"Hot Pockets and Xena tapes":  Player not involved in a hack DCon goes and spends X hundred spending cash to procure morale boosting supplies.  Hacker gains a +X boost to their next round check.

Seduction:
Wingman: Player fails to impress the target to make the player making the check look better.  Wingman removes himself from the DCon to give the Check maker a bonus to his next check.

etc etc etc.

[gaghiel42]

The whole concept of give other people options while preserving what is there/Make other people better to pick up the slack instead of Nerfing is one of my personal preferences.

I would rather have the class there, and fix him up a bit to make him better in a more broad spectrum of options and then give players more chances to interact that don't require them to focus. Than just removing the option/nerfing it down to uselessness anyday.

I guess the real question would come down to a "Does adding in options like this make people consider the wheelman viable still or is it something else?"

So far I've pared it down to these complaints:

-Wheelman is too focused and no good at other things
          most of the wheelman's class abilities are focused towards driving related options.  His gear picks lean this way as well.  However, with his class skill load out and BAB and moderately high VP, he has the potential to be just as good in a fight as anyone else.  Comparing him combat wise to the soldier is like comparing the fighter to the ranger IMO.  Sure the fighter can outshine him in many circumstances, but that doesnt mean the Ranger isnt still really good in a fight. He's just not the -best- at that.
         possible solutions to this include: Changing Wheelman's core ability to make it somewhat more versatile.  Removing weak character options to replace them with broad stroke options (like Roads) or adding in gear/style feats to their bonus feat options.

-Wheelman is the only one that can do things in this situation.  Everyone else sucks in comparison.
            the only things I can think of here is that the wheelman is built to fill in the gaps in the team that the rest don't have the points to handle.  People won't take drive because they assume the wheelman will handle it.  Everyone takes standard ground vehicle proficiency cause it just makes sense, leaving the wheelman to take alternate focuses like heavy ground/rotary wing, etc.  Leaving him as the team's niche filler when they cant do it themselves.  Also, just about every other level they are getting more vehicle options and/or feats that make them better.  These bonus feats however do not preclude them from being awesome at other things aside from those bonus feats granted by the class.  There are also several other classes that if done properly could easily outshine the wheelman.
        Possible solutions here: Give other players more options for improvement in drive skill focuses (for instance, everyone starting with standard ground as a given, without requiring focus) Alternatively adding in options for other players to chip in during DCons without needing the required skill makes for a more exciting time for all and draws less attention to the fairly focused wheelman/hacker classes.

-Everyone should be able to be a wheelman if they want without sacrificing character levels.
        Making a wheelman that isnt a wheelman is relatively easy if that is what the character wants to focus in.  There are some excellent starting specialties that will put you down that path and a whole slew of chase feats that can get you there.  I suggest the Intruder and the Scientist as your best bets, but Pointmen also make excellent wheelmen replacements.

-James Bond is/isnt the wheelman.
          I think we've all said our peace here :p

[TheAuldGrump]

I ahve to admit that neither time there was a Wheelman in the group did I have any trouble with it. 

Possibly because the time period is idiosyncratic, one had a coach and four as his vehicle of choice, the other has a steamshovel*, and has started taking levels of Firebrand.

The Auld Grump
*I am truly ashamed to admit it, but if he were to ask if he could stat up the steamshovel as a personal lieutenant using Transmech my reply would be 'if you can clean up the Chrome rules for the 1800s'.**

** Yes, I know that he sometimes reads these forums.

[TheTSKoala]

I think the syndrome of the Wheelman is, for lack of better terms, "the gun is a gun because it's a gun".  While I could build a better wheelman via Scientist, or maybe even a pointman, why bother when the wheelman exists?  Especially when a wheelman is in the party or wants to be in the party?  Now, the obvious polar point to that would be.. "Well, why bother with a combat character when a Soldier exists?"  Combat is a much more.. open.. enviroment and requires more options than you can shake a stick at.  (Melee, Ranged, Explosives, Mounted, etc.)  Where as Wheelman... well... Chase is a chase.  Not many options for chasing.

I tend to stick to the NPC rules, but modify the environment to mimic something of a Michael Bay movie to keep him challenged.

[gaghiel42]

Agreed on that one Koala.  Any time my team is making characters, they usually dont expect/plan on using more than one wheelman at any given time, but they do try to spread out their driving/gunnery focuses so that everyone on the team has something to keep them busy. 

What do people think about the Non-Maneuver check based actions for Dram Cons?  Would that solve the problem of the wheelman being too niche if that niche opened up for more things than everyone sitting around looking pretty?  Im basically running this whole thread as an experiment in hopes of helping the crafty guys.  If we can come up with some solid stuff,  maybe it'll help them make the DCons more awesome and keep the wheelman/hacker/specialist characters alive in our espionage/etc.

[Desertpuma]

I think it is part of a step in the right direction.... Consider also that LSpy usually had teams of 4-6 players. Realistically, 4 would be the most you would have nowadays. Try running a home game and see who loads on drive focuses when not a wheelman on a team of 2 or 3 people. At that point, the Wheelman does take on more focus.

[Nepenthe]

I think the issue is that "DCon specialists" in general aren't that good an idea, as they are simply too niche. Either the Control allows them to rule that niche, generally to the detriment of fun for everybody (else), or tries to crowbar them out of that niche, to the detriment of fun for the DCon specialist. Instead of just moving "character class -> feat chain", I think that this calls for a bigger revaluation of what people can do, in general. Some character types should be better at some dramcons, but there shouldn't really even be an option for building characters to "pwn" some dramcons at the expense of other abilities.

My proverbial 2c, here.

[Psion]

I've never had a wheelman (or a hacker) stick in the van.

I will say, though, I've never had a single class wheelman past 4th level.

I don't see the same "all about the dcon" for the hacker. The hacker can do analysis, break codes, falsify documents (and conjure them from thin air), research (quickly), all supported by class abilities.