Remind me again why people don't like the wheelman.

[Mister Andersen]

I've said for a while now that the Transporter and the Wheelman need to swap places as the base/expert class

[Desertpuma]

Alex, are you suggesting it would be better as an Expert Class?

I think it is certainly viable and more so than The Transporter ExC. You could certainly do away with that and take the best elements of both the Wheelman and the Ace ExC to make an outstanding vehicle specific class. The Ace's Core Ability getting replaced by the Wheelman's goes a long way too. There might be a bit you could take from the Transporter but most of it is for the most part a convenient fit as an option.

As for keeping it a Base Class, I think there are solid reasons for it to remain so.

As for the Hacker, it is the original Snoop from 1.0 while the Snoop is actually the Wire from the 1.0 book The 60s book. There is enough crunch there that it deserves its own class and it has enough modern uses for to exist on a Base level. I know someone who went Hacker first and stepped over to Scientist to grab a few things. I think the class is solid as is.

Both Hacker and Wheelman get overlooked for what they bring to the game beyond their namesake. Wheelman is loaded in the skills to be a saboteur, demolitions expert, social piranha, born intimidator, and a commander of crewed vehicles. The Hacker is your creator of false identities, gadget creator, researcher, analyst, and information broker. They can both handle multiple roles other than the ones most people associate with them. I think they are just overlooked in that regard.

[Crafty_Alex]

Alex, are you suggesting it would be better as an Expert Class?

No. I'm saying I don't know what it may be yet. A specialty, a feat chain, an Expert Class are all options.

Both Hacker and Wheelman get overlooked for what they bring to the game beyond their namesake. Wheelman is loaded in the skills to be a saboteur, demolitions expert, social piranha, born intimidator, and a commander of crewed vehicles. The Hacker is your creator of false identities, gadget creator, researcher, analyst, and information broker. They can both handle multiple roles other than the ones most people associate with them. I think they are just overlooked in that regard.

Sure, with a class skill list you can do those things - but the class abilities doing other things mean other classes simply do them better. I can drive cars myself, but that doesn't mean I function equally well as a Formula One driver. Whether people "get" them is not a failure of the players, it's a failure of the classes themselves.

Both the Hacker and the Wheelman are on the watch list because they are each very closely tied to a single DCon, and I'd expect the solution that's applied to one will be applied to the other.

[Number Three]

Having been on the GM side's of the screen, I have to say that the Wheelman is just so focused on his niche, that it takes a lot of effort to break him from it.  Like we've already said, most his class abilities are vehicle focused.  On top of that, his bonus feats are from a tree that does nothing but manipulate the Chase D-Con, and I've been wondering about the wisdom of that.

As the Wheelman levels, it quickly becomes a struggle to make a chase that challenges him and keep the rest of the party involved at the same time, and $DEITY help you if someone who hasn't put the ranks in ends up leading the D-Con.

[doneatrawhagis]

As the Wheelman levels, it quickly becomes a struggle to make a chase that challenges him and keep the rest of the party involved at the same time, and $DEITY help you if someone who hasn't put the ranks in ends up leading the D-Con.

My friend just got a pimped out armored SWAT car with a mounted turret on the inside(retractable grates on the back and sides so we can fire out). The Faceman actually did a nice 3d model and animation of it. Side doors along with harnesses allow people to hang out and shoot at passing cars. We are a group of about 6 the only two people are not using guns, our sniper and our face man. Hopefully our first chase scene goes well. Considering I just said that probably not.

[gaghiel42]

I can't help but get the same sort of vibe while talking about the wheelman as I do when I talk to people about spellcasters after a certain level in most fantasy games.  It kinda ends up boiling down into an "anything you can do I can do better" situation.  Mages after a certain point just outshine mundanes because they are able to focus in any direction they want with spells and blow other people out of the water.

If you think about Cars as the wheelman's magic it kinda fits.  Oh sure the Soldier is over here in a gun fight with the big bad, meanwhile the wheelman is getting chased by 10 guys in armored cars with Ak 47s.  Same thing as a fighter tanking a big monster while the mage fireballs a herd of minions.  The mage could get himself some toys and pretend to be a fighter, but he's not gonna be the best at it without using his tricks. 

anyways, that thought aside, some other food for thought from my perspective (being an avid wheelman player):

As nice as a wheelman specialty would be, there are already quite a few in the two spycraft books right now.  Motorhead, Racer, etc.  I can't help but feel those would lose their usefulness if wheelman was to join their ranks. 

A feat chain would be interesting but I can't help but think that you would risk pushing all the interesting Chase style feats back into high level range because any wheelmen would be hurrying to get their tree before they start branching out into Offensive/Defensive driving and One hand on the wheel.  This could have very interesting reprecussions on things if it was paired with an expert wheelman style class as by the time they'd be ready for the expert class,they could start taking the normal chase feats. 

As a character class, when I pick wheelman I think about a few things.  First is that I want a class that has some skill depth to it.  It allows me to be whatever I want to be outside the core packaging of the class abilities.  The wheelman has a decent skill progression, which makes him a better choice than say the Soldier or Scout.  He still maintains his BAB which keeps him in the attacking category with them, and he loses one die type on VP.  So, in MC that'd be like 2 VP difference a level.  It adds up, but a smart character can make up for that by making good choices.  (I'm thinking for instance, the cleric/druid/ranger vs the fighter/paladin)

The real key for the wheelman is in his gear picks and his first few levels of abilities.  The Custom ride ability and the fact that he gets vehicle picks right out of the gate make his "Gear Up Phase" much more of a tactical choice.  When I'm playing a wheelman, during gear up I am thinking about "how do we get there? How are we getting away? What do I need to get to protect my precious cargo?"  that sort of stuff.  The wheelman needs to be the guy who thinks about contingency plans, deals with the to and from parts of the mission.  And is basically a really good 'home base/safety net' sort of character class.  Often times my choices involve splitting up my picks to make sure that everyone has a chair to get there in a number of vehicles, or that I get one big beast of a vehicle that noone could hope to damage so that we can be sure to get away (like my Mobile home that could proteus into a tank). 

The other cool thing is that in a team with people who are the back end of the operation, the arm chair heroes who sit on the sidelines and use their computers or what not to aid the team when their combat skills wont cut it.  It's partially the wheelman's job to make sure those guys stay safe and have a means of escape should they be compromised. (The recon van)

Ultimately, the wheelman's job is to keep the team safe and be the jack of all trades character that fills in the gaps that the rest of the team cannot cover.  Since no other class has such a specific focus on vehicles until later level, that is the job he fills right out of the gate.  The cool thing is that the wheelman can focus on being just a driver, but once other players start to get their own vehicle picks and such, this frees up the wheelman to branch out into new and interesting career choices to broaden his horizons in the upper levels.  The class is definitely an inverted pyramid sort of class where it branches out as it gets higher level as opposed to making the character focus down to hone his skills in one specific area.

Ok whew.  All that stuff aside, here are some of the things I wouldn't mind seeing tweaked and some suggestions on how to make the character more handy:

-The Wheelman is the gear guy.  his job is to have the stash of cool stuff to put forth on the mission.  Most of it is inside his car, but that isn't always the case.  You could easily take his vehicle focus and polish it down a little and instead add in more of a "Quartermaster" approach to the character.  He can be the foil to the Fixer.  Instead of being the guy that buys stuff, he's the guy that builds/stockpiles/requisitions the things the team needs at any given time.  It gives him an important role in the team and it also is an excellent option for multiclassers.

-The wheelman's core ability is his one weakness.  Its super awesome for those chase/repair situations but entirely useless otherwise.  As much of a fan I am of the spend one action die and get 2, I find myself wanting to take wheelman as a secondary class so I dont have to waste my core ability option on driven.
Some suggestions along this line would really depend on the direction you take the class.  If you are keeping it focused on being part of a chase, you could make it something where the player can rechoose his action after they have been revealed a number of times equal to his starting action dice or make it so he can spend an action die to alter the lead by 1 either direction.  If you're taking a more broad stroke approach, I suggest that you give him something more akin to the duct tape and bubble gum feat using class levels instead of mechanics, and make it for one item they designate for the scene.

-Another suggestion would be to have something like D&D 3.5 did with their unearthed arcana book, where you can swap abilities at certain levels for other interesting options.  For instance, you can have several different ability options open that are various 'trees' of powers to help aim your character in different directions.  D&D had racial themed variants, they also had classes that could 'give up X,Y, and Z to gain another class' options' much like the pointman can do.  Give the Wheelman some variant options and let the players decide what kind of wheel man they are, heck you could give everyone those sort of options.  I dunno.  The sky is the limit there really.

Whew, thats a lot of stuff, so I'll leave it at that for now.  Gotta go put some books away.  Love working nights at the library.  So quiet.

[Number Three]

-The Wheelman is the gear guy.  his job is to have the stash of cool stuff to put forth on the mission.  Most of it is inside his car, but that isn't always the case.  You could easily take his vehicle focus and polish it down a little and instead add in more of a "Quartermaster" approach to the character.  He can be the foil to the Fixer.  Instead of being the guy that buys stuff, he's the guy that builds/stockpiles/requisitions the things the team needs at any given time.  It gives him an important role in the team and it also is an excellent option for multiclassers.

I agree with this, and it's what makes me doubt the wisdom of having a Chase tree.  It is easy to extrapolate 'The Gear Guy' from the Wheelman's mechanics shtick, but every odd level Custom Ride is giving two choices - more Drive foci, or Chase feats which only help layer on the D-Con ownage.  If the Chase tree was broken up, I suspect most of those feats would go into the Gear Tree, but where ever they go, the Wheelman's diversity will benefit greatly from having Custom Ride options that don't rely on a Chase conflict to be effective.

[Regularguy]

But wouldn't it be cool if you could actually build Bond the way he is in movies - a deboinair superspy who has 2-3 great chases a film - WITHOUT having to take classes in Wheelman? The chase is such an integral part of the genre, why deprive everyone of the chance to participate in it in a fufilling, genre-appropriate way unless they spend their most precious resource - class levels?

Yeah, but Bond isn't just supposed to be a superspy who has great chases; he's the archetype for "That's Impossible!"

(Back in 1.0, it was AFAICT impossible to build 007 without taking levels in Wheelman; did it bother folks then?)

I'm not saying for certain the Wheelman is gone. But I think there are certainly places where the class is at odds with itself, the system, and with the goals of the game (a team game throughout the entire experience) at times.

See, IMHO that's the problem with building a Bond stand-in; his adventures behind the wheel usually involve having maybe one passenger along, tops.  And so the goal of team-game-throughout-the-experience of course breaks down if you're trying to simulate what he does; a team-player wheelman could well star in chases that look (a) completely different, but still (b) cinematic.

[Krensky]

Those are all fair concerns, and "the guy who can drive really really well" will absolutely need to be represented in modern Mastercraft games. But wouldn't it be cool if you could actually build Bond the way he is in movies - a deboinair superspy who has 2-3 great chases a film - WITHOUT having to take classes in Wheelman? The chase is such an integral part of the genre, why deprive everyone of the chance to participate in it in a fufilling, genre-appropriate way unless they spend their most precious resource - class levels?

And yet you turned "the guy with the horse" into a base class. As for everyone being good at it, why don't we give everyone a full BAB as well so they can all be good in combat. And half their class level to their skills to boot? Having a specialist base class doesn't deprive anyone of the chance to take part in a chase meaningfully. Narrow vision of that specialty and what other people can do does.

...and Turnip hits more of the problems. It's a rock and a hard place sort of thing - that wheelman must either spend his time "not being a Wheelman" by playing a second-rate Soldier or Intruder, or he's gonna sit in the car until the chase is one...which IMEX is the far more likely scenario.

Which leads me to ask, "Why did you let him?"

I'm not saying for certain the Wheelman is gone. But I think there are certainly places where the class is at odds with itself, the system, and with the goals of the game (a team game throughout the entire experience) at times. What is certain is there will be very close scrutiny paid to all the parts interacting with the class, and some level of significant changes made in one or more sections to make for a more fulfilling experience.

A better option might be to make him more like the lancer and provide more support in the Dramatic Conflict system for people to help out or do other things. I had a sleuth in my SG-1 game. Took nazis apart in interrogation DCs. The rest of the party helped out every time. The explorer using computers to raid computers, the soldier playing bad cop with intimidate, the pointman cold reading and handing out AD.

If not everyone can participate in the chase DC, it sounds more like the chase dc may need some representation then that the wheelman needs to be broken up.

[Crafty_Alex]

Holy Blast from the Past, Batman! Good to see you, RG!

But wouldn't it be cool if you could actually build Bond the way he is in movies - a deboinair superspy who has 2-3 great chases a film - WITHOUT having to take classes in Wheelman? The chase is such an integral part of the genre, why deprive everyone of the chance to participate in it in a fufilling, genre-appropriate way unless they spend their most precious resource - class levels?

Yeah, but Bond isn't just supposed to be a superspy who has great chases; he's the archetype for "That's Impossible!"

(Back in 1.0, it was AFAICT impossible to build 007 without taking levels in Wheelman; did it bother folks then?)

And yet, the Wheelman never could really do what Bond did, outside of the driving part. The question remains: is the Wheelman too focused, and hogging too many abilities that might be more appropriate in the hands of other classes? An "ace" expert class could do the same without impinging on Bond's requisite "slick muthaf*cka"

I'm not saying for certain the Wheelman is gone. But I think there are certainly places where the class is at odds with itself, the system, and with the goals of the game (a team game throughout the entire experience) at times.

See, IMHO that's the problem with building a Bond stand-in; his adventures behind the wheel usually involve having maybe one passenger along, tops.  And so the goal of team-game-throughout-the-experience of course breaks down if you're trying to simulate what he does; a team-player wheelman could well star in chases that look (a) completely different, but still (b) cinematic.

There are plenty of "teamy" chases beyond Bond - Ronin, in particular, had a lot of people in the car. But you're right in that chases still tend to be focused on the driver, and one of our goals for future DCons is to make sure they work more towards the entire team.

[gaghiel42]

I would argue that James Bond is not the most appropriate icon to base the class on.  He's pretty multiclassed if you ask me.  Face/Wheel/explorer if you take a look at what he's got under his belt.  Probably more. 

If you want a good character to base him off of, I suggest some of the following:
Frank Martin - The Transporter
Vin Diesel/Paul Walker - Fast and the Furious (if you add in a level of Lawman or Thug)
The Duke Boys - Dukes of Hazzard
Memphis Raines - Gone in 60 seconds
Turk/Virgil McCoy - Ocean's Eleven
The Hoff - Knight Rider
Tank Girl (well, mostly)
Maverick - Top Gun
Speed Racer

I guess the main thing I'm having trouble with is the mindset of the wheelman not being good at staying in there with the 'big dogs' (soldiers, etc) in fights.  The skills/Stats are what determine how the character plays.  He may not have the class features to back him up as much, but he's got the skills and BAB/Vp to let him do just about anything.  I pretty much only play wheelmen and I've never had trouble keeping up.

Now, thats not to say that I wouldn't be happy to see the wheelman take a cool new approach and take on a more Team Protector/Tech Guy sort of role (while keeping his focus on driving).  The class isn't weak in its basic approach.  As far as abilities are concerned, the parts that I would love to see trimmed out are where they start getting vehicle specific familiarities.  Those are not handy for the ever changing world of spys and are where the class starts to fail (I consider 'fail' to be the spot where I decide it is ok to start multiclassing away).  With that piece removed and replaced with something more team/alternate focus useful, the class becomes much more stable and usable all the way to the top.  And of course, a few posts earlier I mentioned their core ability being kinda silly too.

[Desertpuma]

If you removed a few minor things, but added a choice between either an additional Gear feat or Style feat that might be cool. The Ace's Core Ability of adding AD to the Defense of their vehicle may be a good way around the Driven Core Ability about double AD for driving skills. While it can still relate to the Chase DCon, it will not overtake it but will still allow for the Wheelman to add the Defense of his vehicle. Something like:

Spend an AD to add to the Defense of your vehicle lasting for a number of rounds equal to your starting Action Dice.

This would not overboost the Wheelman and allow him to outstrip the opposition in Chases but still give him a better shot at survival. Plus, he keeps Custom Ride for his vehicular benefit which does not always have to be a car but can be a boat, helicopter or even a semi.

What do you think of that Charlie?

[gaghiel42]

Hmm, the core ability idea is solid.  I always wanted to be an Ace but I've never had a game that would let me use jets all that often (sad day).

As for the Gear/Style feat idea.  I could see them becoming part of the Crash Course options, but not as a replacement for the vehicle familiarity stuff.  The problem would be that wheelman would get more feats than anyone else and be 'too good' then. 

They need some sort of built in class ability to replace the familiarity stuff.  I'm thinking along the lines of stripped down gear feats or style feats.  Maybe even something like additional 'custom ride' sort of abilities that would work akin to gear prep.

[Desertpuma]

In addition to the Crash Course, opening them up further and giving them 3 different feat trees to draw from or the 2 vehicle foci. Actually, the Familiarity class abilities are what could become their own Feat chain in the Gear feats. Give it a prerequisite of Extra Gear (Vehicles) and build from there. We could just need to cannibalize a class ability from somewhere (like the Ace) or from an older 1.0 ability (out of the S/W book) to fill those holes. I think it would work actually.

The emphasis is no longer on outperforming the opposition in a Chase in order to win but enhances the survivability of in order to win with less damage to the vehicle. The problem of them outperforming other characters is now mitigated some and now we have to figure out how to keep them from hogging the spotlight as the Hacker might do in a computer thing. Part of that might just be the style of game and the imagination of the players.

Thoughts?

[gaghiel42]

I could easily see an ability that would allow Wheelmen to boost the abilities of their teammates if they aren't the actual one driving (sort of like the pointman ability but only for chases) or perhaps they give stress resistance to every other person on their team when they are in a chase.   Anything that could draw more characters into the chase or enhance their teammates abilities as well as their own.

I would suggest we take some of their focus of the chase away and put it more into a few trees they can go down.  A guardian path, a speedster path, and a gear monkey path.  You could mix/match or go down all of one, but it would help define them a bit more in their roles.  Guardians would be the "transporter' archetype.  Keeping their precious cargo safe.  Speedsters would be masters of fast cars and quick getaways (almost an intruder with a car focus).  And Gear Monkeys would be the soup it up/quartermaster/james bond car character types.