SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes

[Morgenstern]

Yes, but I have to ask: would you complain if Iconic Classes got lightened up? "Wah! My Elf isn't getting penalized for manning up and going Soldier! YOU'RE RUINING MY GAME!"

So not the nature of the question .

Allowing player-side bias to run rampant isn't a long term solution to much of anything . No player of origins that get extra vitality per level would complain that they started getting 4 vitality per level instead of 1, but you would see a decline in people playing other origins.

The issues are
a) those races/talents with iconic classes are balanced around having a -1.0 penalty. They have to be re-writen one at a time, case by case unless there is a uniform replacemnt weighted at -1.0
b) there's a mass of feat support built around expanding that limitation by 1 class as a roughly .5 value. So the replacement (if any) has to be similarly extensible, AND that extention needs to hold a similar value.

What we have a mechanic that currently renders a -2 effect if you fight it, and a -0 if you play along. I've been told (repeatedly and at some length) that -2 action dice is too harsh and/or the range of options is too narrow. Obviously, at the time the origins were written, I didn't agree. For the most part I still don't, but there are two observations made since then that have colored my thinking.

1) I'm less enamoured that the penalty doesn't scale. While I don't feel that -2 is too severe (it is the correct scale for what's being granted), it does become less severe over time. That lead to my first suggestion: A penalty of 1/2 (round in player's favor) is nice in that it does scale to the level of play and can be tuned to be kinder to low level play.
2) I don't actually like that people building up in a non-iconic base class are under closer scrutiny and held to a higher standard than those that shift to expert/master classes. Pondering some kind of altered trigger follows this line of thought. Ironically the easiest fix is just to remove the word "base" from the text, but I'd be lynched if I seriously threw that out there . The simpler trigger idea may eventually produce fruit.

Either way, when the trigger gores off, the results should be harsh: it's a -1.0 thats avoidable, and most -1.0 penalties that aren't avoidable are plenty ugly enough.

Still thinking...

[Aldus Vertten]

... the races rules were tested first in OoTS. i'm just wondering why change now? If it's because they really think that the rules doesn't work, ok.

There are more feats in Origin of the Species to cover more favored classes.  You chose between loosing two action dice or spending a feat.  Choice is the important part. 

So what we need is that feats avaliable for FC at some point. They got lost because of space constraints, but they are supposed to come back insome other product in the future...

[Morgenstern]

Quick table for consideration:
Level Base (%) Current (%) 1/2 (%)
 1-5    3(100%)   1 (33%)   2(66%)
 6-10   4(100%)   2 (50%)   2 (50%)
11-15  5(100%)   3 (60%)   3 (60%)
16-20  6(100%)   4 (66%)   3 (50%)

[Morgenstern]

... the races rules were tested first in OoTS. i'm just wondering why change now? If it's because they really think that the rules doesn't work, ok.

There are more feats in Origin of the Species to cover more favored classes.  You chose between loosing two action dice or spending a feat.  Choice is the important part. 

(And I am fine with the species feat that lets you dodge iconic class penalties being pretty lame.)

*Chuckle*

Unforgettable
In a time of heroes, you carved out a legend.
Prerequisite: Iconic classes.
Benefit: Your Legend rises by 1 and your iconic class penalty is reduced to -1 action dice (instead of -2).

[Doublebond]

Quick table for consideration:
Level Base (%) Current (%) 1/2 (%)
 1-5    3(100%)   1 (33%)   2(66%)
 6-10   4(100%)   2 (50%)   2 (50%)
11-15  5(100%)   3 (60%)   3 (60%)
16-20  6(100%)   4 (66%)   3 (50%)

This does not factor in additional starting action dice gained from outside sources, correct?

[Morgenstern]

This does not factor in additional starting action dice gained from outside sources, correct?

Correct, thought additional starting action dice only come form two sources off the top of my head - a 4 point origin ability, and the Pointmant/Sage 10/20 class ability.

[Morgenstern]

This will sound wierd, and has 2 changes (the requirement is actuallt much more stringent), but look at this~

• Iconic Classes: If you possess more levels in any class than your highest level in either the [Class A] or [Class B] classes, your starting action dice decrease by 1.

Its going the other direction, but it it appears sound (based on a different sort of reasoning).

[tenebrae]

Okay, here's another idea:

"When calculating your character level for the purposes of Starting Action Dice, do not count any base class levels except those from the [BLAH] and [BLAH] classes."

Keeps the same feeling, and keeps a permanent penalty.

If that's not severe enough, reduce the total amount by a further -1. That at least partially fixes my problem with Iconic Classes (that they don't provide any penalty to certain characters, and they still get the benefit of the extra build points).

[Morgenstern]

Okay, here's another idea:

"When calculating your character level for the purposes of Starting Action Dice, do not count any base class levels except those from the [BLAH] and [BLAH] classes."

Keeps the same feeling, and keeps a permanent penalty.

If that's not severe enough, reduce the total amount by a further -1. That at least partially fixes my problem with Iconic Classes (that they don't provide any penalty to certain characters, and they still get the benefit of the extra build points).

Good exploration, but it has two problems: there is no known value for having 0 levels (trivial) and you get creamed for going into expert or master classes (severe).

[Crafty_Alex]

The thing that itches me is not tha fact of changing that rules, is the why. FC has been in the works for years, and the races rules were tested first in OoTS. i'm just wondering why change now? If it's because they really think that the rules doesn't work, ok.

It's simple, really. Customer service. You're customers. We're not infallible. And I assume for every grouse on this board, I expect there are 10 more people that simply won't bother to come here and complain.

What good's making a game that people don't think is fun?

Realistically, you guys put up with *more* than most of the gaming populace. Why? Because many of you already liked our games, or you gave us the chance. But I would put large sums of money there are just as many folks that saw/heard about these rules and said 'Whoah! That sucks, dude. F that game.' Thus missing all the good. And that's not good for Fantasy Craft, cause FC is good and worth a gamer's time IMNSHO

[Crafty_Alex]

OK. Lots to think about here, and a good bit to take back to the shop and tinker with in and amongst errata.

I obviously need to rebuild some new options (and a tighter poll) and come back with a new set of options. Thanks all for your input! Thread locked.