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Author Topic: Subdual and Knockout – what am I missing?  (Read 2389 times)
Morgenstern
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2010, 08:51:05 AM »

*Chuckle* The moment you said 'Garret' I knew I was reading a Thief example. Didn't realize it needed to be said aloud Smiley.
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Azgulor
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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2010, 10:40:53 AM »

*Chuckle* The moment you said 'Garret' I knew I was reading a Thief example. Didn't realize it needed to be said aloud Smiley.

I just like seeing the guy get some recognition!  Grin
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Agent 333
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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2010, 01:05:47 PM »

I noticed the name Garret, but having never actually played Thief myself I didn't know Lord Bafford was a character from that game. I just assumed that one of your players named a Burglar after his favorite video game character. Hell, I've seen it happen in my games more than I'd like to admit...
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Azgulor
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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2010, 02:10:15 PM »

If you get a chance, they're great games to play!  Yeah, they're a bit dated now, but I still find they suck me in for hours upon hours.  The original invented the stealth genre in video games and while I'm not a steampunk fan, I was thoroughly caught up in the games.  Great sound, mood, story, voice acting, and setting.  One of the few game series that succeeded in keeping me on the edge of my seat or creeping me out!

Yeah, you haven't lived until you play a Thief game until 3 AM in a room that's completely dark save for the glow of the monitor!
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Krensky
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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2010, 02:22:08 PM »

The original invented the stealth genre in video games...

Ahem, Hideo Kojima would beg to differ.
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Doublebond
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« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2010, 02:53:10 PM »

Even Metal Gear wasn't the first game to have avoiding detection as an objective...
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Azgulor
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« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2010, 02:58:46 PM »

Apologies.  I stand corrected.  I believe the game designers claim to fame was "original first-person-stealth" game (as opposed to First-Person-Shooter).

Regardless, they rock.

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Morgenstern
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« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2010, 06:48:03 PM »

*heh* THe WEEKS ofmy life lost to playing Tenchu in all its many incarnations will be a joy to me unto my final breath.

I loves me my stealth-action games.
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« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2010, 03:07:33 PM »

You seem to have this sorted out but I'd like to dip my toe in the water and muddy them up, so to speak  Grin

In this particular situation, calling Garrett's attack on Bafford a Terminal Situation sets what could well be a dangerous precedent. Anything that sets up a Special NPC to be one-shotted becomes an easy way to completely bypass any meaningful combat. Sure, certain circumstances have to go the character's way - the NPC must not be aware of the threat, and the PC's have to successfully get into Melee range - but IMNSHO* Special NPC's are special - in part - because they've lived long enough or are paranoid enough to avoid these sorts of situations.

Sure Garrett would like to drop the Bad Guy(tm) but I think someone back on p2 of this thread hit on the solution - distract him instead. Create a disturbance somewhere else, and draw off the "experienced combatant" who in all likelihood will see the attack coming and be able to fight back (possible crit on the attack roll notwithstanding).

Not everyone will have Code vs Killing (to steal from a much much less impressive game  Wink ) and if you allow this situation to be a Terminal Situation, I fear you'll have arguments on your hands later on down the track when someone sneaks up on your carefully designed SNPC and says - "so this is Terminal, yeah? I spend an action die and kill him". On the flip side of that coin, it makes your Assassin's Guild SPNC's incredibly dangerous, as they could off the PC's without any problem or combat, and that doesn't sit well.

Wow I feel like I've explained this really badly Smiley More Coffee Required!

In a nutshell; Terminal Situations should be extremely rare; you are correct in that you can't knock out a SPNC with one shot (partially why they are special), and Garrett needs to think of another way to get Bafford away from the Scepter.

my 3c

Viperion

*anyone still use that phrase? I feel so old... teehee
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Krensky
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« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2010, 04:02:49 PM »

In this particular situation, calling Garrett's attack on Bafford a Terminal Situation sets what could well be a dangerous precedent.

Not really. Terminal Situations occur because the GM says they do.

Anything that sets up a Special NPC to be one-shotted becomes an easy way to completely bypass any meaningful combat. Sure, certain circumstances have to go the character's way - the NPC must not be aware of the threat, and the PC's have to successfully get into Melee range - but IMNSHO* Special NPC's are special - in part - because they've lived long enough or are paranoid enough to avoid these sorts of situations.

Special NPCs are special because of their role in the campaign or adventure's narrative structure.

Sure Garrett would like to drop the Bad Guy(tm) but I think someone back on p2 of this thread hit on the solution - distract him instead. Create a disturbance somewhere else, and draw off the "experienced combatant" who in all likelihood will see the attack coming and be able to fight back (possible crit on the attack roll notwithstanding).

Or why not just charm him, or seduce his wife, or any of a hundred other tricks.

Oh, yeah, because that's not the question the OP asked, or what the player and GM wanted to do.

Not everyone will have Code vs Killing (to steal from a much much less impressive game  Wink ) and if you allow this situation to be a Terminal Situation, I fear you'll have arguments on your hands later on down the track when someone sneaks up on your carefully designed SNPC and says - "so this is Terminal, yeah? I spend an action die and kill him". On the flip side of that coin, it makes your Assassin's Guild SPNC's incredibly dangerous, as they could off the PC's without any problem or combat, and that doesn't sit well.

The GM says no. Terminal Situations only occur when the GM says they do. Players who argue with GMs get to find new tables. The GM can kill any PC at any time. The rules can not prevent jerkwad players or GMs from ruining the game.

In a nutshell; Terminal Situations should be extremely rare; you are correct in that you can't knock out a SPNC with one shot (partially why they are special), and Garrett needs to think of another way to get Bafford away from the Scepter.

Terminal Situations occur whenever the GM wants. If you want them rare, don't use them. Special NPCs are special, again, for narrative reasons not simulationist ones. It is entirely appropriate for the GM to call this a terminal situation and let the PC one-shot the NPC either lethally or otherwise. That's what the cheating death rules are for.
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We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
EloiseCartwright
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« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2010, 04:22:50 PM »

To find a middle ground, whilst I agree somewhat with Krensky, I'd not like playing in a game where these things aren't at least vaguely consistent.
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