Subdual and Knockout – what am I missing?

[Azgulor]

Can I point out that if you crit someone with subdual damage they are stunned for 1 round, 1d6 if they fail the fort save for fatigued.  Stunned characters are flat footed and can't act.  So its not like you can't take out a special NPC in one hit.  I've seen many a special NPC get critted by subdual or stress and get destroyed in those few rounds of inactivity, or tied up, or whatever.

Except (unless an exception exists that I haven't seen yet) on p. 211, Subdual damage: "cannot inflict critical injuries, rather it accumulates until it wears off".

As an aside: You've set up that bafford is talking to the sceptre like its a courtisan, that he's completely engrossed in it, which might be enough to justify him being helpless, as he's too fixated on the sceptre to defend himself against the first attack at all.

I hadn't considered that Bafford, being so fixated on his prize, might qualify for the helpless condition.  Something to consider.

[Azgulor]

It seems to me that the ability to knock a character out would best qualify as some sort of class ability. I mean, when you knock someone out you immediately have the chance to kill them, so the ability to do just that is incredibly powerful. This leads me to believe it would best work as some kind of #times/scene ability or something like that, which are abilities that are generally found as part of classes.

This makes sense. I mean, guys like Sam Fisher,  Solid Snake, Jason Bourne, etc. are able to knock people out from behind all the time, but they're also that good. Perhaps you could swap this ability with one of the Assassin's or Burglar's abilities? Or perhaps this should be the realm of a new expert class—the "infiltrator"?

While I don't think special character knockouts should be easy, I don't think they should be restricted to a class ability either.  It should be a combat or advanced tactic option.  I'm not saying it can't require some special training, but if you can apply sneak attack damage through ambush mechanics, it doesn't make sense to limit it to a character class.  (I mean, if you're going to do that, might as well say only rogues can backstab/sneak-attack and I think FC has progressed well beyond that.)

[Morganti]

Can I point out that if you crit someone with subdual damage they are stunned for 1 round, 1d6 if they fail the fort save for fatigued.  Stunned characters are flat footed and can't act.  So its not like you can't take out a special NPC in one hit.  I've seen many a special NPC get critted by subdual or stress and get destroyed in those few rounds of inactivity, or tied up, or whatever.

Except (unless an exception exists that I haven't seen yet) on p. 211, Subdual damage: "cannot inflict critical injuries, rather it accumulates until it wears off".

Critical Injuries, are not critical hits.

Critical Injuries are described on page 208.
Critical Hits are things that trigger off threat range, just like critical errors trigger off error range.
So, in the same section where you grabbed the text about subdual damage accumulating, it talks about what happens if you activate a threat with a subdual weapon, the opponent is stunned.

Also, Sneak Attack applies to subdual damage just as well as lethal damage.  Sneak attack dice augment the weapons normal damage type, if its subdual, the sneak attack damage is subdual, if its lethal, the sneak attack damage is lethal.

[Azgulor]

Ah, thank you for the clarification & correction.

However, I believe the original question still stands: "Is it possible to knock out a special character (NPC or PC) with a single strike/surprise attack/sneak attack, etc.?"

I can kill him via lethal damage, but can I KO him?

With sneak attack, I can decrease the odds of someone making the FORT save.  However, I can't exceed Fatigue I in a single strike.

Ruling helpless under certain circumstances (perhaps broader than stated) and applying coup de grace seems to be the most RAW-plausible scenario thus far.

[Krensky]

No, calling it a Terminal Situation is the most RAW solution.

[Sletchman]

Knockout Poison - failure is unconcious for 1 minute, costs 60 silver, and with Venom Master takes effect instantly.

Other then that - Club Mastery comes close, but its fail 2 damage saves per failed save.  So best you can do is make them fail 4 saves as a half action [with darting weapon or two weapon fighting].

[ArawnNox]

It might be bad form to use your narrative as a basis for argument, but it does raise the question some have asked: Why is he a special NPC?

I thought that a special NPC is someone who is important enough to have a name, as well, but that's not truly the case. An NPC can have a name and still be a standard NPC (the flirty bar-maid in "Darkest Hour" for example, has a name). Given the context of the situation the PC finds himself in in your narrative, the special NPC is just another obstacle in the way of the burglar and not worthy of being a special NPC.

Now, if the Lord were something more important to the plot, like say the power hungry noble intent on using his demonically possessed scepter to bend the King to his will, THEN he would be a special NPC, and you wouldn't want him getting knocked out in one blow by a opportunistic player, would you? In a cinimatic game, the battles that are focal-points of the story (e.g. confronting the Big Bad Evil Guy or his Second in Command), aren't single round affairs, the NPCs would be special so they don't rely on a damage save and have better overall stats than a standard NPC.

Back to your original question, no, there's not a whole lot that the PC can do to knock out a special NPC in a single blow, however, the burglar in your example does have a lot going for him:
The NPC is flat-footed, so any and all Dex/Dodge bonuses to his Defense are gone.
The Burglar is hidden from the NPC, so for his first melee attack, the NPC is considered flanked, which grants a +2 to the attack roll.
If the Burglar has sneak attack die, those augment the subdual damage of his sap.
If the Burglar hits and does some serious damage, the NPC can face a pretty nasty DC for his Fortitude save, which is likely to be pretty low if he's common nobility.
If the Burglar crits, the NPC is stunned for at least 1 round, which gives the Burglar more attacks to try to knock him out before the NPC regains his senses.

Fatigued is nothing to sneeze at, either. Even with 1 grade of it, the NPCs Strength and Dex scores drop by 2 (effectively, a -1 to all skills and stats tied to them, Defense included, and negative Dex mods continue to apply to flat-footed characters), he can't run, and his base speed drops by 5 feet.
So, if things turn into a prolonged struggle, the burglar already has a major leg-up on his adversary.

I hope all that rambling helps, even though it didn't exactly answer your question.

[Jackal]

No, calling it a Terminal Situation is the most RAW solution.

While I've only run a few sessions to date, this is how I've handled such things and, I agree, it does seem to be the most appropriate way to deal with the situation you described.

[Atr]

It seems to me that the ability to knock a character out would best qualify as some sort of class ability. I mean, when you knock someone out you immediately have the chance to kill them, so the ability to do just that is incredibly powerful.

But, what if you can kill someone but what you want is just knock him?

May be a Trick that allows a characer to knockout a Special Character if the subdual damage rolled its enough to kill him. (I wouldn't allow it if using lethal weapons)

That way the burglar can knockout Bafford if rolls a crit and the damage is enough to kill the noble.

[MilitiaJim]

Not for nothing, if this noble is in fact a bad ass badguy who will be plaguing the PCs for quite some time, do you really want him established as a pushover?  (If he isn't special, crucial to the plot, he's standard and will most likely drop like a sack of flour when coshed in the back of his nugget.)

Throw in a couple warnings about how the dude is a tough hombre and if the burglar wants to tangle, let him get his ass beat.  A good whack should give Sir Fancypants the fatigue that will allow the burglar to escape when he realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew.

[Crafty_Alex]

It seems to me that the ability to knock a character out would best qualify as some sort of class ability. I mean, when you knock someone out you immediately have the chance to kill them, so the ability to do just that is incredibly powerful.

But, what if you can kill someone but what you want is just knock him?

Current text from FC, page 217:

"Outside combat only, the GM may declare that any situation from which a character cannot logically escape is a Terminal Situation (commonly, the victim must be helpless in order for this to occur). Until the situation passes, any opponents within
Melee Range may spend 1 action die to cause the victim to either fall unconscious or die, as appropriate to the circumstances at hand."

Empahsis mine.

Pat and I discussed this very issue as we're wrapping errata last night. Terminal Situations DO allow you to knock someone unconcious in one hit - the issue seems to be the implication they must be helpless, which is basically either tied up or unconcious in most cases even though that's just an example ("commonly" being the operative word in that sentence). We'll be clarifiying that in the errata.

[Sletchman]

Practice Makes Perfect to the rescue!  It has an advanced action called "Only Flesh Wounds" where you can take away damage done to them after the fact.  Shouldn't be to hard to convert to Mastercraft.

[Crafty_Alex]

Practice Makes Perfect to the rescue!  It has an advanced action called "Only Flesh Wounds" where you can take away damage done to them after the fact.  Shouldn't be to hard to convert to Mastercraft.

Only Flesh Wounds is basically written for practice fighting - letting you go at each other full bore, then remove the damage you inflicted if you want. This would work in your classic honor duel between two PCs, but the attacker has to be using it. Not sure how that releates to instant knockout.

[Sletchman]

Practice Makes Perfect to the rescue!  It has an advanced action called "Only Flesh Wounds" where you can take away damage done to them after the fact.  Shouldn't be to hard to convert to Mastercraft.

Only Flesh Wounds is basically written for practice fighting - letting you go at each other full bore, then remove the damage you inflicted if you want. This would work in your classic honor duel between two PCs, but the attacker has to be using it. Not sure how that releates to instant knockout.

That seems fair - I was thining about using it by killing the guy, and then just before the scene ends [you about to make your escape] you revoke the damage and he comes to, revealing that it was incidental damage.  Outside its intent, but as a GM I'd let it fly [of course for me it would have been terminal from the word go, or the NPC in question would have been standard].

[Azgulor]

First of all, thanks to everyone who responded.  You brought several points about the game to my attention that I hadn't encountered yet on my read-through.

Yep, Terminal Conditions is definitely the way to go.  It handles the issue cleanly...crisis averted!


The thread veered off into "why a special character" territory more than I expected.  I'll have a response to that shortly but need a few moments to gather my thoughts about it.

As an aside, -10 xp for the party.  No one picked up on the Garret & Bafford (& scepter) references from Thief: The Dark Project video game! (One of my all-time favorites and a go-to for story, setting, & mood.) 

Thanks again, everyone!!