Subdual and Knockout – what am I missing?

[Azgulor]

(Apologies if my search-fu is weak and this has been answered elsewhere.)

Trusty sap in hand, Garret leaves the shadows along the side of the building and silently creeps up behind the guard walking the halls outside Lord Bafford’s trophy room.  Now as any burglar worth his salt knows, killing denotes a lack of skill, and Garret considers himself a master thief.  The hour is late, the guard has yawned thrice during the time Garret has observed him, and the torch in the sconce between Garret the guard just gutted out.  No time like the present...

Garret creeps up to the guard, strikes, and the guard drops to the ground like a stone.  Good thing the floor is carpeted or the noise would have attracted someone's notice.

Slipping inside the trophy room, Garret jumps into the shadows upon hearing someone talking.  He listens for a few seconds and realizes that while someone is in trophy room, they seem unaware that he’s entered the room.  Garret glides along the wall, hugging the shadows.  Peering around the edge of the archway before him, he sees Lord Bafford himself, talking to the jeweled scepter sitting within a trophy case as if it were a high-priced courtesan.

Bafford’s engrossed in admiring his latest prize.  One well-placed blow from the sap should render him unconscious.  Just like the unconscious guard.  Garret’s done it dozens of times before…


…except this time, the campaign’s been converted to FC and for the life of me, I can’t seem to figure out how to pull this off.

The guard, a standard character, succumbed to Garret’s strike easily due to his reliance on the Damage Save.  Lord Bafford, however, is a special character.

Starting Condition:
•   Bafford is unaware of Garret’s presence.  Bafford is flat-footed, but not helpless.
•   Garret is behind Bafford, but he’s alone, so no flanking bonus.
•   Garret is a burglar with sneak attack dice, perhaps he’s got some ranks in Tactics but for this example, I don’t think the # of sneak attack die matters.
•   The SAP does 1d6 subdual and has the finesse quality, which is good since Garret’s got loads of Dex.

The Problem:
  1. Subdual damage is not applied against Vitality or Wounds and can’t inflict critical injuries.
  2. Since Garret can’t coup-de-grace Bafford (Bafford is not helpless), the BEST result Garret can get is Fatigued I!

Now if Garret’s player rightly assumes that Bafford is a special character, he’s presented with a pretty crappy choice: Dismiss his “Thieves don’t kill unless necessary” credo b/c, from a meta-game standpoint, he can probably kill Bafford with a sneak-attack dagger strike, or he can throw-away his (to this point) perfectly executed intrusion, risk a fight against a potentially better fighter, possibly raising the alarm in the process.

The GM's in a crappy spot b/c if Garret's player attempts the knockout but fails, he's going to ask why.  The GM can already hear it, "Wadda ya mean he's a special character?"  That aside, it feels a bit like cheating presenting a scenario where the player can't steal the scepter and escape unnoticed.  (I mean c'mon, Ethan Hunt successfully stole something out of the CIA for crying out loud...)

Is this right?

The Coup-de-Grace description states the helpless condition is required.  The Sneak Attack Damage description says it allows them to “augment the damage of any Standard Attack or Coup de Grace made against a flat-footed or helpless target”.

Does the ability to inflict Sneak Attack Damage allow one to apply Coup de Grace against a flat-footed, unaware target or does the helpless condition requirement remain in effect?  If the restriction stands, does that mean one can NEVER render a special character unconscious via a subduing attack without progressing through Fatigue I-IV first?

I really hope I'm missing something.  Otherwise, I think I may have ID'd a need for House Rule #1.

[Deral]

When this sort of situation has come up in my FC games, I've generally allowed it to fall under Terminal Situations (pg 217), I'm not certain it's entirely the spirit of the rule, but I feel it's nice and thematic and it's never been an issue at my table, so that might be a solution for you.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Why is Lord Bafford a special character?  You haven't established that he's any more important to the story than the guard.  If he's just some random noble then he should be standard so he can be easily captured.  But if there's a good reason for him to be special then there's a good reason for him not to be easily captured.  That's what I think the whole point of the Special quality is.

[Doublebond]

The way I see it, a standard character is one that does not deserve a name. If he's important enough to the plot to get a name, then he has good reason to be a special character.

[Agent 333]

Here's how I'd run it:
He's a Standard Character for the first attack. If that fails to knock him out, or it succeeds and the PC is about to do something he shouldn't (like sticking around too long, or thinking "Hmm, I've got an unconscious noble I can assassinate real quick..."), spend a couple action dice to have him upgraded to Special and tell the PC "He groans a bit, then says 'Ow, my head'" and retcon the unconsciousness to Fatigued I plus a free knockdown.
Voila, easy knockdown if the PC can pull it off, but doesn't let them completely remove a special character before his time without a fight.

[Fortinbras]

The way I see it, a standard character is one that does not deserve a name. If he's important enough to the plot to get a name, then he has good reason to be a special character.

I don't know about that, standard characters have names too if anybody cares about them enough to ask.

Mechanically, 90% of the difference between standard and special characters is that the latter are far harder to kill. If it's that easy for a single PC to take this guy out with a single surprise attack then he's not a special NPC by definition, IMO.

You could always declare it a terminal situation, of course, but to me that makes it seem like any situation where a character isn't aware of their attacker should be terminal, which is a dangerous precedent to set.

[Psion]

The way I see it, a standard character is one that does not deserve a name. If he's important enough to the plot to get a name, then he has good reason to be a special character.

Heh. I really don't know about that. I mean it seems to be in-genre for espionage and stealth-heavy fantasy game and makes for a simple thumbrule, but really not the best rule for every situation and campaign style. I didn't name my shoggoths in my Freeport fantasy game, but I didn't want the players one-shotting them. I wanted them around long enough to leave a mark.

FC makes it a bit more blatant than SC 2.0: Being a special character is primarily about survivability. You make someone a special character, you are saying "I don't WANT the players to take this guy out quickly and easily."

[Agent 333]

Actually, the problem I've found more often is that it's quite often a lot easier to knock out a Special character than kill him outright. The huge amounts of vitality special characters get basically means the only way to kill them is with Critical Hits and Coup De Grace after bashing him in the head 5-10 times.

[Bill Whitmore]

Just be careful.  As neat as it may seem to be able to bypass a bucket load of vitality and wounds and basically kill someone with one hit, remember the NPCs may have the same option when it comes to the PCs.  Try reversing the roles and have some NPC make an attack from the shadows and knock out an unsuspecting PC.

It's a special character, they aren't supposed to be easy.  And if he hasn't done his homework well enough to know that Lord Bafford is on the premises, what he looks like and know enough to avoid him, it is going to be tough luck when he jumps him thinking he is some unsuspecting peon.

[Psion]

It does bug me how quick PCs (and special NPCs) can go down contrasted with their boatload of vitality. I've considered re-instituting a threshold or (to reduce tracking) moving the fortitude save to a single one at the end of the initiative count.

[Azgulor]

Bafford is special because this scene will establish him as a recurring villain that will play a significant role later on.  When I envisioned the adventure, I never imagined that Garret's character would successfully get to the trophy room without raising an alarm.  I had this whole confrontation/fight scene planned out but player skill and the die thwarted me.  Damn you gods of gaming and your fickle die!!!!  

Also, I'm the GM and I said so, dammit!  

That said, you're all dodging the question!!  Did I assess the conundrum successfully or did I miss something in the rules?!?  Answer the question, or so help me, if you end up at my table, the Bleak Heroes, Dead Means Dead, Fragile Heroes, Hewn Limbs, and Rampant Corruption campagin qualities will all be in effect!  -- Just kidding.  Answer the question as posed, please.

Also, Bill Whitmore hit on the other side of the coin.  Are you telling me that in FC, it's IMPOSSIBLE for a NPC to knockout a PC b/c they're "special"?!?!?

I'm all for the FC boost to keeping special characters up and running.  However, I'm totally against nerfing superior tactical play b/c a big fight scene HAS to happen here.  That way leads to madness.  (See Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace -- specifically the "necessity" of the Pod Race.  The only thing missing from that were actual tracks, a train, and George Lucas hanging out the engine's window shouting "All aboard the Pod Race sequence".  Also, please do not go into Star Wars tangents.  It's merely provided as an example of a railroad plot.  I can almost stomach it b/c it's a movie.  I won't at the game table.)


All kidding aside, why Bafford is special isn't important.  I just wanted to illustrate a scenario where something that would logically flow doesn't appear to be possible.  As a GM, would I want Lord Bafford to get knocked out?  Hell no.  But I wouldn't cheat my player to provide plot-immunity.  At least not beyond what GM Action Dice affords me.

[Azgulor]

When this sort of situation has come up in my FC games, I've generally allowed it to fall under Terminal Situations (pg 217), I'm not certain it's entirely the spirit of the rule, but I feel it's nice and thematic and it's never been an issue at my table, so that might be a solution for you.

I hadn't read this yet, so thanks for pointing it out.  However, it also hinges on the helpless condition like coup de grace.

From a houserule perspective, it's as valid as saying sneak attack allows coup de grace to apply to unaware flat-footed characters, so I may ultimately adopt it.  I'm still hopeful that I've overlooked something in the rules that provides some mechanism for a special character to be knocked out without rolling through Fatigue I-IV.

FWIW, if such a scenario is supported within the rules, I'd be equally grateful for stringent conditions having to exist for it to come into play to avoid it being abused.  I'm not looking to one-shot PCs or special NPCs in the middle of battles in dramatic scenes.

However, since I can backstab someone (i.e. sneak attack with lethal attack), including sniping (waves to Deadeye), scenarios for one-shot-kills already exist within the game.  Thus far, it just seems as though one-hit knockouts on special characters are out-of-bounds.

[Krensky]

I hadn't read this yet, so thanks for pointing it out.  However, it also hinges on the helpless condition like coup de grace.

While sufficient, helpless is not necessary for a terminal situation. The required element is that it's outside combat, and you've got them (or vise versa) dead to rights. Team breaks in, wanders into the trophy room, a dozen guards with crossbows show up from hidden firing points on the balcony above, that's a terminal situation if you desire.

Also, since your thief is, presumably, hidden he gets the flanking bonus.

[Sletchman]

Can I point out that if you crit someone with subdual damage they are stunned for 1 round, 1d6 if they fail the fort save for fatigued.  Stunned characters are flat footed and can't act.  So its not like you can't take out a special NPC in one hit.  I've seen many a special NPC get critted by subdual or stress and get destroyed in those few rounds of inactivity, or tied up, or whatever.

How I'd do it: Make him take a knowledge check first - tell him that he knows its Lord Bafford, who has a reputation for being extremely tough for nobility [or perhaps a former soldier who was granted nobility through his actions or whatever] and if he doesn't get a solid first hit [critical], he's in for a heck of a fight.  Then the player can decide to set up a distraction, or try his luck.  Realistically if the player crits, with the sneak attack damage bafford will probably fail the fort save, be out for 20 seconds, and the player can get the sceptre and leg it.

As an aside: You've set up that bafford is talking to the sceptre like its a courtisan, that he's completely engrossed in it, which might be enough to justify him being helpless, as he's too fixated on the sceptre to defend himself against the first attack at all.

[Doublebond]

It seems to me that the ability to knock a character out would best qualify as some sort of class ability. I mean, when you knock someone out you immediately have the chance to kill them, so the ability to do just that is incredibly powerful. This leads me to believe it would best work as some kind of #times/scene ability or something like that, which are abilities that are generally found as part of classes.

This makes sense. I mean, guys like Sam Fisher,  Solid Snake, Jason Bourne, etc. are able to knock people out from behind all the time, but they're also that good. Perhaps you could swap this ability with one of the Assassin's or Burglar's abilities? Or perhaps this should be the realm of a new expert class—the "infiltrator"?