Spycraft Third edition Wishlist and Suggestions Mega-thread

[Golden Dragon]

I've held off on posting, but two things come to mind:

1. Poisons that work instantly. Why use a knockout poison, when the target may still have 4 rounds to raise an alarm?

2. This is probably against the Mastercraft mandate, but I liked the complexity of the rules. The armchair gamer in me liked trying to maximize the bonuses in pursuit of a triumph. The origin insight bonuses that scaled with level were quite fine, as were the scaling synergy bonuses.

[Forcegypsy]

Re: poisons that work instantly are already part of mastercraft (see the Venom Master attack trick).

[Crafty_Pat]

I'll get in on that.  It'll be like the pocket edition, except in the ways that it isn't.

...or shouldn't.

A small (but often relevant) wishlist item: can we please have a space on the character sheet for recording the character's nationality.

Good point. Making a note now.

Not really a wish, 'cause I can see this is the tendency from Fantasy Craft, but I really hope you'll continue to keep things simple and go to the essential. I'm thinking of a few main points where it is an absolute necessity:
Dramatic Conflicts: Though one of my favorite aspects of the game, they tend to be a little too complex. Too much choices, too much restrictions (chases on foot are extremely limited for example), too much intricate additional rules (smash points, gah!). On the other hand, a lot of various effects (crisis, stress, etc.) is good.
Weapons: By far, the point that needs to be cut the most. Real-world weapon is cool, iconic espionage weapons is even better, but a 2-pages catalog for assault rifle is IMO useless. 10 to 20 iconic assault rifles should be well enough. Same thing for guns, etc. Who cares if the bad guy has a Glock 17, 17L, 18, or 19?
Actions, conditions, etc: I love how you've condensed these parts with FC, so I guess there's no fear to have here.
NPCs: Too many qualities IMO. FC is a great effort of condensing those, but I think that without the fantasy element, they can be even more condensed in SC3. Again: Keep. It. Simple. Strongly thematic, effect-based qualities, maybe a separate section for animal qualities, and that's it.
Gadgets: Too many choices in SC2, making it the king of all item categories by far. OK, that's what it's supposed to be, but then it shouldn't be considered equivalent to other items. Should you make it something as distinct and unique as magic items in FC, it would be great.

There are other things I would like to point out, but maybe later. That was my "lets cut down Spycraft to 400 pages" post.

And Aegis is my hero of the day. Thank you man. ::wipes tear from eye:: That did my soul proud.

[TheAuldGrump]

Re: poisons that work instantly are already part of mastercraft (see the Venom Master attack trick).

The problem is that Venom Master is a character option, not a poison option. (I am not over fond of it either.)

I would like to see graded poisons (and other potions, but mostly poisons) - a gade from I-V should be fine, but the poisons, at least in FC, lack flexibility. Rip 'em out and start over for SC₃.

The Auld Grump

[Mister Andersen]

What about making poison work like acid or fire damage?

[Gentry]

For myself, the Poison upgrades in FC let you do pretty much whatever you want. You can either give a character the Venom Master trick or give the poison the Fast-Acting upgrade, and the DC-increasing upgrades give you the equivalent of a ranked poison. I'm thinking the tools already exist in FC to fix poisons.

[glimmerrat]

I like poisons. My only objection is that i'm too tight to pay for them.

[TheAuldGrump]

For myself, the Poison upgrades in FC let you do pretty much whatever you want. You can either give a character the Venom Master trick or give the poison the Fast-Acting upgrade, and the DC-increasing upgrades give you the equivalent of a ranked poison. I'm thinking the tools already exist in FC to fix poisons.

Not really - with ranks damage would go up as well as the DC. Increasing the save DC could be layered on top of the DC change from an increased rank. So, no, not happy with the poisons as laid out, they lack flexibility in a game that strives for exactly that. (It seems to be the point where I have most of my problems with FC - I also dislike the class skills only rule for the same reason, enough so that I do not even consider getting rid of it a campaign quality, just the way things should be.) I want increased flexibility, not someone telling me that I don't need flexibility. I also very much disagree with Venom Mastery being a Trick - it really should be an upgrade for the toxins themselves.

Disease needs work as well, but given that the Crafty Crew seems to not like disease in the game (and say so in the book) I do not think it likely to happen. Not as irksome as the poisons anyway - I think disease is something that is pretty campaign specific. (For my game in the 1600s Black Plague and Leprosy are both 'Dread Diseases' - normal magic does not work on them. Important for a plot point. In thirty years or so the Black Death will end when a major city burns down....)

The Auld Grump

[Gentry]

How bad do you want a Poison to be? As written, a Fast-Acting Virulent Lethal poison deals 2 wounds every round until the poisoned character manages a DC 19 Fort save or dies, whichever comes first. Adding the Exotic upgrade means the anti-poison Tonic has no effect. Turning it into a Cocktail with Debilitating poison means you have to make two DC 19 saves every round: one for wound damage, and 1 for Con impairment (talk about your double-whammy).

Were you looking for something worse? Or just cheaper? 

Would you potentially be mollified if the upgrade table had 1) a worse DC modifer than Virulent ("Horrendous?"), and/or 2) an option for "Double Damage"?

[TheAuldGrump]

How bad do you want a Poison to be? As written, a Fast-Acting Virulent Lethal poison deals 2 wounds every round until the poisoned character manages a DC 19 Fort save or dies, whichever comes first. Adding the Exotic upgrade means the anti-poison Tonic has no effect. Turning it into a Cocktail with Debilitating poison means you have to make two DC 19 saves every round: one for wound damage, and 1 for Con impairment (talk about your double-whammy).

Were you looking for something worse? Or just cheaper? 

Would you potentially be mollified if the upgrade table had 1) a worse DC modifer than Virulent ("Horrendous?"), and/or 2) an option for "Double Damage"?

Worse. Definitely worse. Sometimes 3 wounds a round is just not going to be enough of a threat.

A simple version would be +1/per round and +1 save DC per grade. So a I poison would actually be weaker than the standard, while a V would be dealing five points a round.

The Auld Grump, off to the game....

[Krensky]

3 wounds a round isn't bad enough?

That will kill an "average" special NPC in 4 rounds, or an average PC in 5.

That's 24 or 30 seconds.

[Gentry]

Thank you, Krensky.

Just to be clear, the above described cocktail works like this:

Round one, make two Fort saves DC 19. Failing the first one means you lose 2 wounds (and are fatigued). Failing the second means you lose 2 Con.
Round two, make two saves (now at -1 for Con loss). See above.
Round three, make two saves (now at -2 for Con loss). See above.

If you biff the first two saves, you've lost 4 wounds (2 for the damage, and 2 from a now-reduced Con score), and are on a descending Con slide that makes it harder and harder to save at all. By the end of round 3, you're down 12 wounds (and 6 Con, the Fort penalty increasing to -3), and most burglars are either dying or getting close (can you keep saving when unconscious?). By round 4 it's 16 wounds, and all but the heavy soldier types are probably on the floor. By round 5 (30 seconds), it's 20 wounds, and lights out for nearly any PC.

In a vacuum, anything can be looked at as "not a threat to certain characters". But nail somebody with this in an opening round of combat, keeping the target from help for even a round or two, and it's bad bad news. At the very least, said nailee probably eats through his action dice to make his saves before the poison does too much damage, and that's bad for him in its own way.

Ultimately, do you just want a Save or Die poison option (or Save or Bad-Thing-Happens-You-Can't-Stop)? That's just GM fiat, and doesn't need a ranking system.

For a weaker poison, of course, the upgrade chart could certainly include a "weak" option that cuts all the effects in half, as well as the cost and complexity.

[TheAuldGrump]

3 wounds a round isn't bad enough?

That will kill an "average" special NPC in 4 rounds, or an average PC in 5.

That's 24 or 30 seconds.

Yep. However you are assuming that no saves are successful - an unlikely situation. Particularly for characters that can pump their saves with Action Dice, Feats, or a conveniently nearby medic. The odds of making saves during that time drops the average by a lot. (For my part - I meant to type '2' not '3'.)

And Gentry - no, if I wanted Save or Die I would have said Save or Die, since I did not then I did not. Do not put words in my mouth. 

I want flexibility - that is F as in Flummoxed, L as in Lame, E as in Error, X as in Xavier, E as in Egregious, I as in Irritating, L as in Loser, I as in Irrational, T as in Trenchfoot, Y as in Yucatan. Sometimes a poison is stronger, sometimes it is weaker, having the ability to easily modify the poison is something that I want. What you suggest is not what I want. Are we now clear on this?

The Auld Grump, yes, I really am annoyed.

[Agent 333]

3 wounds a round isn't bad enough?

That will kill an "average" special NPC in 4 rounds, or an average PC in 5.

That's 24 or 30 seconds.

Yep. However you are assuming that no saves are successful - an unlikely situation. Particularly for characters that can pump their saves with Action Dice, Feats, or a conveniently nearby medic. The odds of making saves during that time drops the average by a lot. (For my part - I meant to type '2' not '3'.)

And Gentry - no, if I wanted Save or Die I would have said Save or Die, since I did not then I did not. Do not put words in my mouth. 

I want flexibility - that is F as in Flummoxed, L as in Lame, E as in Error, X as in Xavier, E as in Egregious, I as in Irritating, L as in Loser, I as in Irrational, T as in Trenchfoot, Y as in Yucatan. Sometimes a poison is stronger, sometimes it is weaker, having the ability to easily modify the poison is something that I want. What you suggest is not what I want. Are we now clear on this?

The Auld Grump, yes, I really am annoyed.

Just FYI, you spelled Flexeility, not Flexibility

[Sletchman]

Please keep the critical hit / error lists from Spycraft 2.0 intact.  My group doesn't like the examples in FC and often reverts to the Spycraft 2 charts.