Mixed feelings on Spycraft 3e

[Crafty_Alex]

edit: Its also a cool way to make Non-existing firearms/weapons incase you end up wanting to branch out beyond the real world for Sci-fi/Future/Fantasy Manufacturers or you know, port in alternate reality versions of guns from outside sources.  Like say Heroes and Transmech or if you made mass effect, borderlands, fallout, etc.

Right....except Spycraft 3 is going to be about spies and espionage and stuff.

[gaghiel42]

Doesn't mean there aren't non-real world examples of that...  and if Transmechs and HEROes are any example of some of the things crafty wants to include (even eventually) I think it still is a valid point.

It was also meant as a 'nudge nudge' sorta response too.

Edit: Or say, for instance, make a Fantasy Craft Modern booster pack with the Saurian Model AK47, or the Drake RPG, or what have you.

[TheAuldGrump]

Oh, and as a suggestion for crazy awesome modular gun options.  Take a gander at how the game Borderlands (recent release for the 360) deals with weapons.  Every type of guns has a manufacturer, and each different component of the gun is 'randomized' between a variety of set pieces that ends up determining its base stats so they end up having something like 17 million different options as far as weapons go.  Its like diablo for guns.  Pretty cool

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

As a neither here nor there thing, for a non-real world game... I have to admit that sounds AWESOME!!! Heck, if I were to ever run a Real American Hero game I would want it.

If the possible video game weapons book for SC ever comes out I would love to see something like this.

The Auld Grump, I also liked it in the short lived D&D Diablo series of supplements.

[Aragathor]

But do not confuse the MAG and the G&G. The former is a pale shadow compared to the latter.

*Thinking back on MAG* You let me know when you hit an in-service foriegn military rifle that has no published size statisitics, search until you find a photo of it with a scope attached that you are intimately familiar with, and then calculate it's size by proportion from that piece of data.

And I'll be real suprised if you're building some of the formulas from scratch.

That 'pale shadow' is called 'the shoulders of giants' in some parts .

OK, OK - so Aragathor got caught with a little bit of hyperbole in his teeth. Let's all give him a break.  

That's no hyperbole, that's a straight line.

But do not confuse the MAG and the G&G. The former is a pale shadow compared to the latter.

*Thinking back on MAG* You let me know when you hit an in-service foriegn military rifle that has no published size statisitics, search until you find a photo of it with a scope attached that you are intimately familiar with, and then calculate it's size by proportion from that piece of data.

And I'll be real suprised if you're building some of the formulas from scratch.

That 'pale shadow' is called 'the shoulders of giants' in some parts .

MAG was published around 2002, right? It has been 8 years since then and the Internet has grown, there are a lot of sources for gun info. Plus most of them are very technical.
What you described was the case with some of the chinese rifles in Dragon's Fury, it was fun.

Number Three - look at the pyramids, without hubris they wouldn't be standing, now would they?

Passing on something from one of my players (hello Eric, why not drop in yourself?) - he greatly prefers having a nice long list of real world guns, such as the one in SC 2.0. PDFs are fine for adding new guns, and the real oddballs, but he wants the core list to be BIG. (He is the one who pores over the BFoG series, and the Shooter's Guides.) I guess every group has a gun nut.

Me, I want alternative eras, not just modern - when the Great Game was between Russia and Great Britain, fighting for the Jewel in the Crown of Empire, when the newly formed German Empire was casting covetous eyes at the old woman's holdings. When the idea of a submersible vessel was enough to send spies scurrying across the map. When stopping a single assassination might have been enough to prevent two of the worst calamities that the world will ever see. Heck, when a shoe phone might have seemed like a good idea....

The Auld Grump

[Sletchman]

Me, I want alternative eras, not just modern - when the Great Game was between Russia and Great Britain, fighting for the Jewel in the Crown of Empire, when the newly formed German Empire was casting covetous eyes at the old woman's holdings. When the idea of a submersible vessel was enough to send spies scurrying across the map. When stopping a single assassination might have been enough to prevent two of the worst calamities that the world will ever see. Heck, when a shoe phone might have seemed like a good idea....

The Auld Grump

As long as the "Year" column remains you should be pretty good to go.

[Desertpuma]

Pat & Alex, never get rid of that "Year" column in the Gear areas.

[TheAuldGrump]

Heh - one thing that gives me mixed feelings is the renewed focus on espionage.... I don't think that I have run a single straight up espionage game with the SC 2.0 rules. The closest has been Delta Green.

I really like the great big toolbox that is 2.0. I have used it for steampunk and post Apocalyptic gaming, for modern horror and pulp detectives. The PDFs have made the system amazingly flexible.

Obviously not the fault of S₃, and I can see how what I consider a huge advantage might be a liability for someone who just wants a spy game, from Bond, to Bauer, from Smiley to Riley....

The Auld Grump

[Hida Reju]

Well I hope thing turn out well but this either the deal that turns this franchise around in Colorado Springs or the nail that kills it forever locally.

No takers in my group on Fantasy Craft and only passing interest in a Spycraft game at all makes it hard to push to pay 50+$ for new material.

[TheAuldGrump]

One thing that really does worry me is that I don't want the weapons from one era to feel just like the weapons of another - if I am running a game in the Cold War of the 1960s the weapons should feel different than those of G.I.s infiltrating Castle Ravenloft in WWII.

The Auld Grump

[Goodlun]

I for one do not have mixed feelings, for me this is like combing the best parts of GURPs with the best parts of D20 ending with a product dripping in awesome sauce.  10K + SC3 + FC equals a heck of a lot of flexibility to run a lot of campaigns.  Of course the an equivalent of "future" would also be nice. 

[Crafty_Pat]

One thing that really does worry me is that I don't want the weapons from one era to feel just like the weapons of another - if I am running a game in the Cold War of the 1960s the weapons should feel different than those of G.I.s infiltrating Castle Ravenloft in WWII.

Feel different... how?

[Crafty_Pat]

I for one do not have mixed feelings, for me this is like combing the best parts of GURPs with the best parts of D20 ending with a product dripping in awesome sauce. 

Thanks for the enthusiasm! Any chance you're coming to this year's Indy seminar?

10K + SC3 + FC equals a heck of a lot of flexibility to run a lot of campaigns.  Of course the an equivalent of "future" would also be nice. 

Eventually we hope to hit on the genres closest to each of your hearts - and in each case do it real justice, without worrying about the trappings of the rest. (That is, after all, mostly where you come in - at least for now.)

[Goodlun]

Thanks for the enthusiasm! Any chance you're coming to this year's Indy seminar?

I wish I could but I live in San Diego and just don't have the budget(currently an unemployed full time student at a private university) to travel.

[Crafty_Pat]

Thanks for the enthusiasm! Any chance you're coming to this year's Indy seminar?

I wish I could but I live in San Diego and just don't have the budget(currently an unemployed full time student at a private university) to travel.

Completely understand. Well, be sure to catch the vid when we get it up on YouTube. We're doing things a bit differently this year and I think you'll dig it.

[TheAuldGrump]

One thing that really does worry me is that I don't want the weapons from one era to feel just like the weapons of another - if I am running a game in the Cold War of the 1960s the weapons should feel different than those of G.I.s infiltrating Castle Ravenloft in WWII.

Feel different... how?

Rate of fire, reliability, durability, weight - all changed. There should be a difference between using a 19th century Berdan and a 21st century Barrett. The difference between using a Colt Naval revolver, with the nipples and the chance of chain fire and a modern S&W .38 with a shrouded action. Between a Mondragon and an M16.

On the flip side the durability of a Land Pattern musket is likely much higher than an M16. (Hard to tell, the M16 ain't been around for a century yet, let alone almost three.)

One of the things that I really don't like in Fantasy Craft is the way wheellocks and flintlocks are treated exactly the same - there is a huge difference between the two that the rules gloss over. Flintlocks were much more reliable, probably the difference between failing on a 1 and failing on a 1-3. And just adding the reliable quality doesn't cut it, since the flintlock was also cheaper, not more expensive. The world changed in a remarkably short time.

The differences are there, and with a game that has the scope of Master Craft those differences should be reflected. Hell, leaving the Industrial Age still armed with flintlocks.... (The Industrial Era really needs a support book. Things changed so much between the 18th and 19th centuries....)

And some games will take place during a technological cusp, when wheellocks might still be in use simply because that is what the person had, though others had already made the change to the snapchance. (For that matter, there are a number of wheellocks that had their actions changed out when the flintlock became available. An advantage for handtooling.)

The Auld Grump, I wish that I could share the joy of firing archaic weapons with you....