Mixed feelings on Spycraft 3e

[Crafty_Pat]

Pat, don't you just love us passionate gamers?  I know Crafty wouldn't want it any other way...No really, I'm serious!  

We do indeed love the enthusiasm, and we appreciate the comments. Rest assured that Alex and I slave over these decisions, taking the very broad spectrum of concerns and requests into consideration every time we build rules. One thing I do ask is that you try to be specific, however. Using the most recent example in this thread alone, telling us you love 2.0's classes and that MC's classes are somehow different doesn't really help us. We need to know, specifically, what you think is different and why, specifically, you don't like it. Otherwise we can't address the issue on its merits and we're likely to ignore the comment when building for the future.

[Aragathor]

rgpandrade no one here played a modern MC game, FC is fantasy which does not really translate into what you can do with a modern rule set.

Doublebond ok.

[Number Three]

Now, according to my NDA I'm not allowed to tell you what I'm doing right now without permission.  
And I really don't want to bash heads with Pat and Alex over being loose-lipped.
But do not confuse the MAG and the G&G. The former is a pale shadow compared to the latter.

(If it sounds like I'm being a downer, my apologies.  I'm trying to be a realist about this, and if my short tenure as a GM as taught me anything, it's that the plan never survives contact with reality.)

(Never ever.)

[gaghiel42]

For one thing that I really liked (and would like to see more of) is the specialty as subclass idea you guys were using for Fantasy Craft.  Being a druid/priest or fighter/mage etc was a really cool idea and added a crap ton of new customization to the world.  One thing that I am looking forward to is all the various Espionage themed ones that will hopefully arrive to pad out the already substantial list that you had in SC2.

As for other specifics.  I would really like to see (and Im sure you already have plans for this) a more updated ride/drive/etc section.  It seemed to me that this area was kinda glossed over a bit in Fantasy Craft and for good reason I guess, but I loved chase rules and collision damage and all those wonderful things.  I'd love to see perhaps a somewhat expanded section for this in some form or another. Plus, it might help make wheelmen feel less overly focused.

One thing that might need a little touching up for SC3 would be the renown/reputation reward system if it will still be a part of it.  The Fantasy Craft version was interesting, but most of my players could not wrap their heads around the costs and the various steps involved to raise their renown high enough to afford things.  I don't really have many ideas at the moment for ease of suggestion purposes, but I think that SC2 had a good way of adding in the Rep/Net Worth value at the end of each items listing.  Something like this that would really focus on the cost may be able to help.  Like a column that is Renown/Rep and you can just list the required level and then cost? *shrug*

Oh, and as a suggestion for crazy awesome modular gun options.  Take a gander at how the game Borderlands (recent release for the 360) deals with weapons.  Every type of guns has a manufacturer, and each different component of the gun is 'randomized' between a variety of set pieces that ends up determining its base stats so they end up having something like 17 million different options as far as weapons go.  Its like diablo for guns.  Pretty cool

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

[Crafty_Pat]

One thing that might need a little touching up for SC3 would be the renown/reputation reward system if it will still be a part of it.  The Fantasy Craft version was interesting, but most of my players could not wrap their heads around the costs and the various steps involved to raise their renown high enough to afford things.  I don't really have many ideas at the moment for ease of suggestion purposes, but I think that SC2 had a good way of adding in the Rep/Net Worth value at the end of each items listing.  Something like this that would really focus on the cost may be able to help.  Like a column that is Renown/Rep and you can just list the required level and then cost? *shrug*

<--Confused. Where did you guys hang up? Can you please walk us through the specific rules that caused the problem?

Oh, and as a suggestion for crazy awesome modular gun options.  Take a gander at how the game Borderlands (recent release for the 360) deals with weapons.  Every type of guns has a manufacturer, and each different component of the gun is 'randomized' between a variety of set pieces that ends up determining its base stats so they end up having something like 17 million different options as far as weapons go.  Its like diablo for guns.  Pretty cool

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

These sorts of things work fabulously in computer games, where your interface is a controller with split-second response time. Push a button, see what the upgrade does in real time and move on. What you have to realize about PnP games is that each and every one of those calculations is going on in a human brain, and that everyone has their own tolerance for calculation. Twelve years into doing this and I can say with some authority - most folks aren't interested in even a fraction of that much work to put together a gun.

[Morgenstern]

But do not confuse the MAG and the G&G. The former is a pale shadow compared to the latter.

*Thinking back on MAG* You let me know when you hit an in-service foriegn military rifle that has no published size statisitics, search until you find a photo of it with a scope attached that you are intimately familiar with, and then calculate it's size by proportion from that piece of data.

And I'll be real suprised if you're building some of the formulas from scratch.

That 'pale shadow' is called 'the shoulders of giants' in some parts .

[gaghiel42]

One thing that might need a little touching up for SC3 would be the renown/reputation reward system if it will still be a part of it.  The Fantasy Craft version was interesting, but most of my players could not wrap their heads around the costs and the various steps involved to raise their renown high enough to afford things.  I don't really have many ideas at the moment for ease of suggestion purposes, but I think that SC2 had a good way of adding in the Rep/Net Worth value at the end of each items listing.  Something like this that would really focus on the cost may be able to help.  Like a column that is Renown/Rep and you can just list the required level and then cost? *shrug*

<--Confused. Where did you guys hang up? Can you please walk us through the specific rules that caused the problem?

Ok, I went back and looked at the FC book as I didnt have it in front of me when typing before.  Basically, what their complaints (in my eyes now) amounted to was that they wanted to min-max their cool magic item but didnt bother to do the necessary flipping back and forth to determine what kind of Renown they needed to purchase said item.  When my eyes bugged out as they tried to spend 60 reputation to uber buff their sword, and told them no, They didnt understand because they didnt read the parts necessary. 

So if I was to suggest a way to solve their problem it would be that there be a not so subtle reminder that you can only spend 10x your renown level in reputation bought prizes.   SC2 didnt really have that as a requirement and in each gear chart, the items had specific listings for their reputation costs.  That was super handy.  Fantasy Craft had this 9 times out of 10, but any method to further beat people over the head with how much it costs (even adding an extra dumbed down "Guard Rep Cost = NPC Xp value" in bold) would be nice.

[Crafty_Pat]

That's incredibly helpful, G - not just for Spycraft Third and 10kB but also for the Second Printing of Fantasy Craft.

This, folks. This is exactly the kind of feedback we need.

[VisualStatic]

If - IF - I were to comment on guns in SC3/10kB, and I'm not officially, I would say you'd be far more likely to see a less exhaustive collection of real world guns focusing on the most iconic choices in the core releases, with the Gear & Gadgets book doing the heavy lifting for the cornucopia of weapons and equipment others may seek.

(this conversation will self desctruct in 5 seconds...)

What I would suggest, and it will probably be quickly flamed, would be something in G&G that would allow for stating guns quickly.   Enough weapon qualities, upgrades, ammo qualities and dmg stats so that I could throw the yearly Gun & Ammo Hanggun Review at the PCs and let them pick one and I stat it up quickly, similar to the way NPCs are handled.

I'm not looking to make things realistic, I just want to be able to allow a PC to say, I'm caring gun X and I as a GM can go, ok here's its stats.

[Crafty_Alex]

But do not confuse the MAG and the G&G. The former is a pale shadow compared to the latter.

*Thinking back on MAG* You let me know when you hit an in-service foriegn military rifle that has no published size statisitics, search until you find a photo of it with a scope attached that you are intimately familiar with, and then calculate it's size by proportion from that piece of data.

And I'll be real suprised if you're building some of the formulas from scratch.

That 'pale shadow' is called 'the shoulders of giants' in some parts .

OK, OK - so Aragathor got caught with a little bit of hyperbole in his teeth. Let's all give him a break.  

[Morgenstern]

Oh, and as a suggestion for crazy awesome modular gun options.  Take a gander at how the game Borderlands (recent release for the 360) deals with weapons.  Every type of guns has a manufacturer, and each different component of the gun is 'randomized' between a variety of set pieces that ends up determining its base stats so they end up having something like 17 million different options as far as weapons go.  Its like diablo for guns.  Pretty cool

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

Neat link! Thanks.

[Morgenstern]

OK, OK - so Aragathor got caught with a little bit of hyperbole in his teeth. Let's all give him a break.  

Heehee. Certainly. Aragathor has been a diligent and driven researcher and I look forward to what he can deliver to the topic. And to see the results of the winnowing process that puts a more manageable pool of gear/weapons in the core books for those who don't pick up the supliment.

[TheAuldGrump]

Passing on something from one of my players (hello Eric, why not drop in yourself?) - he greatly prefers having a nice long list of real world guns, such as the one in SC 2.0. PDFs are fine for adding new guns, and the real oddballs, but he wants the core list to be BIG. (He is the one who pores over the BFoG series, and the Shooter's Guides.) I guess every group has a gun nut.

Me, I want alternative eras, not just modern - when the Great Game was between Russia and Great Britain, fighting for the Jewel in the Crown of Empire, when the newly formed German Empire was casting covetous eyes at the old woman's holdings. When the idea of a submersible vessel was enough to send spies scurrying across the map. When stopping a single assassination might have been enough to prevent two of the worst calamities that the world will ever see. Heck, when a shoe phone might have seemed like a good idea....

The Auld Grump

[pawsplay]

Which actually speaks directly to the dificulty of working with the modern era. For sci-fi it's no big deal (even appealing) to have maybe 30-40 base models, a couple layers of of overlays (weapon technology/manufaturer/quality level), and 20ish ge-gaws you can attach to them... and viola - 20,000 sci-fi weapons. Like magic, nobody can really tell you you're wrong when you do it that way and its eminently balanced, diverse, interesting, and playable. But dealing with the modern age you start hitting some demands for research and accuracy that, unless you are a pre-existing ameteur scholar on the topic, can quickly far outstrip the finacial return for the effort.

OTOH, I remember soundly mocking some or other modern handgun book. An entry would be like, "This handgun was so and so developed for the Boingo Army and blah blah. It used a unique chambering mechanism that yadda yadda..."

Then you would page down, and it would say, "Damage: 2d6 Critical: 20."

[gaghiel42]

Oh, and as a suggestion for crazy awesome modular gun options.  Take a gander at how the game Borderlands (recent release for the 360) deals with weapons.  Every type of guns has a manufacturer, and each different component of the gun is 'randomized' between a variety of set pieces that ends up determining its base stats so they end up having something like 17 million different options as far as weapons go.  Its like diablo for guns.  Pretty cool

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

These sorts of things work fabulously in computer games, where your interface is a controller with split-second response time. Push a button, see what the upgrade does in real time and move on. What you have to realize about PnP games is that each and every one of those calculations is going on in a human brain, and that everyone has their own tolerance for calculation. Twelve years into doing this and I can say with some authority - most folks aren't interested in even a fraction of that much work to put together a gun.

I totally agree with you, but I was thinking more along the lines of this.  In FC you guys had a boat load of cool manufacturer types, along with craftsmaship, and then addons.  In effect this is the same thing that Borderlands does, except that each individual weapon gains different gear upgrades separately.

So, in that line of thinking you could make a simplified version where you could have a pool of separate upgrades based on location on the gun.  Different guns could have so many upgrade 'spots/slots' what have you, and you could categorize the upgrades on what weapons they actually work on.

For instance, extended barrels would work on the barrel slot of Rifles, Pistols, and Shotguns, but not so much on Rocket Launchers.  In SC2 you covered it by saying that these upgrades only work on those specific toys and it worked.  In SC3, you could make little tables listed with each gun (or sorted by gun type) to show what works where.  Ok, nothing too special there beyond handy formating that would make upgrades easier, but then you add one extra column and maybe an extra table somewhere that lets you roll for random caliber weapons to add for 'loot' on baddies.

Your bad guy is cal II and has a gun.  Roll on the cal II table for random firearms and it spits you out a gun with a small selection of random upgrades.  Kinda a nice little extra feature for a GM who lets his players loot the bad guys. 

So, it would allow people to go crazy like this: http://infinitytactical.com/infinitytactical/images/sopmod_02.jpg

But, it would also allow people to take it or leave it and have it their way if you will.  And its a fun way to have tons of extra things to pad out/add content to over time.  And you get more bragging rights, instead of so many thousand magic item options you have so many thousand/hundreds of thousands of gun options.

edit: Its also a cool way to make Non-existing firearms/weapons incase you end up wanting to branch out beyond the real world for Sci-fi/Future/Fantasy Manufacturers or you know, port in alternate reality versions of guns from outside sources.  Like say Heroes and Transmech or if you made mass effect, borderlands, fallout, etc.