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Author Topic: Mixed feelings on Spycraft 3e  (Read 11279 times)
Krensky
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2010, 12:40:17 PM »

Because of the Dramatic Conflicts that might be done? ... I will miss as well. As for Fluid Initiative, my experience is that it works better with veteran players of the actual game than thrusting it on newbies.
 

Never had issue with newbies, more typically old greybeards got confused by the change. As fore the classes, I can't remember whether it was Pat or Alex but they said they wanted to tale their toys and make them feats because thye classes were too focused or something.
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2010, 12:51:34 PM »

Hurm ...

I don't think the Wheelman is too focused but it can be and I can understand the need to mark the Hacker as such in some situations.
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2010, 01:53:44 PM »

I've been thinking about what I thought since last night.  Initial reactions were very much cranky, but after thinking about the changes, my main concerns finally simmered down to just a few and I think that as long as Crafty keeps them in mind, it'll all be cool.

I had to first think about what the differences between SC2 and FC were and where my complaints with FC spawned from.  Most of them came from the "there just isn't enough X" in terms of Fantasy Craft.  X typically was for me: Support in PDF expansion or book form, Gear, and classes and feats.  I think that in time (and with the addition of these new core books) most of these problems will disappear as concerns for MC in general.

For Spycraft, I kinda just got the hang of it better, but thats more because I've played it with the people that made it and a bunch of the Lspy crowd and knew it better.  Plus its a mature game with a ton of cool support.  The announcement of SC3 basically had me fretting mostly over the loss of the gear and cool stuff in the name of simplicity.  With all the amazing things they have in SC2's gear section (and all the PDF suppliments) I hope they are able to just mush it all together and make it into one big happy game and not lose any of it, but sadly I know thats not how the industry works.

So, I figured I'd just toss out a few suggestions on what would make me happy:
-With a new chance to rework the gear section, could we:
a) get all the cool things from the bag full of guns added into the lists without needing extra pdf purchases again.  That'd be great.

b) if we end up simplifying the rules for guns into "all pistols do X" and then using manufacturers or add-ons, could we at least get a list of examples of common ones (i.e.  The FN FiveseveN is a pistol with this material, these bullets and this craftsmanship)  A list of firearms with names really helped some people in my game identify what it was that they wanted (and at least helped them identify what it was they really liked easier).  If guns become generic I will be somewhat sad, but will understand.

c)Don't come at this from the less is more approach if at all possible.  Its worth the extra pages to add in extra random gear in that would otherwise get glossed over IMO.  Players spent a lot of time between games just "shopping" for what it was they wanted and I think that really enhanced the feel of our modern games.  The rules for common items were awesome, and I fully endorse a big section on them.  Just feel free to not stat them.  Its cooler to make the GM decide on rules for them and such (like random +1 gear bonuses on skill checks and such).  A funny suggestion along these lines I had was instead of coming up with 'costs' for them all to save you time is add in a 'rule' where if a player can find an advertisement on the item's cost that's how much it would be in dollars.  (i.e. Player asks "how much is this crowbar?" GM can either tell them a generic price or have them look it up online or something and find a real life cost.  It could be funny.  Maybe worth a little blurb sidebar as a suggestion on rulings)

edit: One addendum to this thought in general along the lines of thought "We dont want people spending all day looking in the book instead of playing the game"  I think that having the players browsing the book for gear and ideas and such was what really got people to get involved with the game.  It draws them in and helps them get a better understanding of the game as a whole.  If people find their players are spending too much time shopping instead of playing.  There are ways (and opportunities to suggest more in the book) to keep them focused elsewhere and do their shopping/studying in RL downtime instead.

-Don't lose the classes that were too "focused" like Hacker and Wheelman.  Instead, perhaps broaden their class features up a bit but keep the concept the same.  I'll have to create some sort of "gamers for the ethical treatment of wheelmen" group or something to protest otherwise.  Tongue

Ultimately, I think my concern is losing the feel of depth that SC2 had for the genre in the name of simplicity.  A close second is my fear of having to re-buy all the cool new PDF additions you guys have made recently again.  I'd love to see all of that re-purposed right into SC and 10kB at launch, but I know thats not how the system works.  Seriously though, Heroes and Transmechs are awesome, I was looking forward to using them in an upcoming game but with as long as our game que is its more likely SC3 will be out by the time I want to use them... (with any luck...)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 01:57:16 PM by gaghiel42 » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2010, 02:36:02 PM »

You know, i had the same worries that Gaghiel and Azg had.  But honestly, I'm not worried.  Think of it like this...

Is Crafty lightning in the bottle or actual craftsmen (and women if applicable).  Was SC2 such a stroke of once in a life time genius that you/i/we think they can't do it again?  Or... is this a mastered craft that, like a picaso or a da Vinci, we can count on them to do it all again? 

..I tend to hope for the masters of their craft.  Or.. at least... seasoned artisans of the craft.  Smiley 
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2010, 02:46:18 PM »

I think I will be the only one who will miss the gear system.

OK, I won't so much miss it as I will miss the idea of completely removing a character's personal wealth from a player's notion of gear.
No, no you will not be the only one who misses it. I would go so far as to say that if S3 is missing a gear system that is at least somewhat similar to that of SC2 then I would likely consider it a deal breaker - the SC Gear system handles thing much better in regards to Agencies than the system in FC could hope for. (And that's why I have not converted my Steampunk game to FC.)

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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2010, 02:50:39 PM »

I dunno, I think most people who participated in that chat late(ish) last year pretty much expected that a master spycraft would be in the pipeline next... Kind of sad it's going to still be a while, but am going to do my best to enjoy the products until sc3 and 10kb...

Really hoped to see some Chrome, but I guess a time for everything...
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2010, 02:53:22 PM »

I too find the gear system very easy and enjoyable to use.  It was the first real "Top Notch" BALANCED system that worked.  Could be reorganized in the book a little but that is just symantics.

I can't speak for FC or compare it with SC 2.0 because I haven't even looked at FC at all.  If I may ask, what is the main difference in mechanics between FC (Mastercraft) and SC 2.0?
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2010, 02:56:25 PM »

Oh, I definitely am looking forward to seeing what the new version entails and I trust them to do right by us.  I just feel that us old standbys need to make sure our thoughts are heard so they know what it is they can aim to recapture again in the translation.  

Most of the concerns are not much different than when I had to rebuy all the 3.5 books for D&D.  I was sad, but after a little while, realized how much better it was than the previous rendition.  The same will be true here.  We're just fortunate in that we have people who listen to our concerns and are typically able to deliver or at least suggest something to help soothe our worries.
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2010, 02:57:15 PM »

One of the many differences in general is the removal of prereqs from feats.
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2010, 03:02:54 PM »

I can't speak for FC or compare it with SC 2.0 because I haven't even looked at FC at all.  If I may ask, what is the main difference in mechanics between FC (Mastercraft) and SC 2.0?

One of the many differences in general is the removal of prereqs from feats.

Anything else?  Fluid Initiative?  Dramatic Conflicts?  Actions?


<----very interested in a comparrison
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2010, 03:14:02 PM »

I haven't had a lot of time to read through FC with RL but I did not Dramatic Conflicts, actions seemed the same, but I don't recall seeing Fluid Initiative because the goal was to simplify.
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2010, 03:21:10 PM »

I haven't had a lot of time to read through FC with RL but I did not Dramatic Conflicts, actions seemed the same, but I don't recall seeing Fluid Initiative because the goal was to simplify.
So no Dramatic Conflicts, no Fluid Initiative and Action seemed the same.  Thanks.  Those are the things I wanted to know that SC 3.0 somewhat will or will not have.  Thanks puma.  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2010, 03:22:57 PM »

Welcome, Trigger ... anyone else feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe I got that correct
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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2010, 03:47:37 PM »

They have mentioned in the past that Dram Cons are going to be a separate entity as in PDF support in the past.  I assume this is still the trend.  They wanted it to be universal instead of picking and choosing which systems had which dram cons, so they would not have to reprint them all.  I know(hope) they aren't gone for good.

What FC does have that SC2 doesnt is a really awesome NPC creation system and some pretty interesting takes on gear modifications/upgrades that could definitely go a long way in SC3, but could in theory steal a lot of SC2's specialized/specific gear listing thunder depending on how it works in the end, but I think Crafty will handle this properly after seeing everyone clamoring to save the gear section Smiley  Done right, their new system will be glorious when combined with the specific gun rules.

FC also hasnt just simplified feat restrictions, they've also reworked a lot of them to make them far more interesting, and added the concept of 'species feats' which were a really cool boon for the FC verse.  Actions are roughly the same as before, but they are starting to add more cool combat tricks which can spice it up quite a bit.  Fluid initiative is out I believe (and I never used it in the first place, so I didnt notice at all).  The new usage of interests as profession/alignment/languages is fairly interesting as well, but I think limits some effectiveness in making cool stuff happen.  Hand-waving things like languages fixed that pretty fast in my games.

There was a new wealth/reputation system that seemed kinda overtly complicated in the new FC system but with the return of the SC gear system (with some alternate options) I think it will all get smoothed out in the end.  It kinda nerfed non-combat oriented gear, but I think that SC will fix most of that.  Fantasy gear is harder to conceptualize typically and that might have been part of the prob.

If they continue the OGL conversion trend, we may see a 2.0 NPC conversion thread or have it rendered moot with the far superior NPC creation rules in MC.  So that shouldnt be a concern.  And once you get past that, the only other things about FC that were hindrances were that there wasnt enough of it to satiate my players.  But that is a problem in all worlds, and the job for the creative juices in your groups (and the forum's heads) to puzzle out.  That and that non-combat gear felt a little underdone.  Crafty no doubt promises to have some cool new gear rules for SC3 and I think they will not only make FC a more complete system, but with FC and SC3 and 10kB, we'll finally have all our eggs in one basket and have our cake and eat it too.  Etc.
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2010, 04:07:52 PM »

They have mentioned in the past that Dram Cons are going to be a separate entity as in PDF support in the past.  I assume this is still the trend.  They wanted it to be universal instead of picking and choosing which systems had which dram cons, so they would not have to reprint them all.  I know(hope) they aren't gone for good.

What FC does have that SC2 doesnt is a really awesome NPC creation system and some pretty interesting takes on gear modifications/upgrades that could definitely go a long way in SC3, but could in theory steal a lot of SC2's specialized/specific gear listing thunder depending on how it works in the end, but I think Crafty will handle this properly after seeing everyone clamoring to save the gear section Smiley  Done right, their new system will be glorious when combined with the specific gun rules.

FC also hasnt just simplified feat restrictions, they've also reworked a lot of them to make them far more interesting, and added the concept of 'species feats' which were a really cool boon for the FC verse.  Actions are roughly the same as before, but they are starting to add more cool combat tricks which can spice it up quite a bit.  Fluid initiative is out I believe (and I never used it in the first place, so I didnt notice at all).  The new usage of interests as profession/alignment/languages is fairly interesting as well, but I think limits some effectiveness in making cool stuff happen.  Hand-waving things like languages fixed that pretty fast in my games.

There was a new wealth/reputation system that seemed kinda overtly complicated in the new FC system but with the return of the SC gear system (with some alternate options) I think it will all get smoothed out in the end.  It kinda nerfed non-combat oriented gear, but I think that SC will fix most of that.  Fantasy gear is harder to conceptualize typically and that might have been part of the prob.

If they continue the OGL conversion trend, we may see a 2.0 NPC conversion thread or have it rendered moot with the far superior NPC creation rules in MC.  So that shouldnt be a concern.  And once you get past that, the only other things about FC that were hindrances were that there wasnt enough of it to satiate my players.  But that is a problem in all worlds, and the job for the creative juices in your groups (and the forum's heads) to puzzle out.  That and that non-combat gear felt a little underdone.  Crafty no doubt promises to have some cool new gear rules for SC3 and I think they will not only make FC a more complete system, but with FC and SC3 and 10kB, we'll finally have all our eggs in one basket and have our cake and eat it too.  Etc.

Nice!
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