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Author Topic: Mixed feelings on Spycraft 3e  (Read 11513 times)
Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2010, 08:32:38 AM »

Goodlun, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I agree completely. With 10K + SC3 + FC + FS + a Psionics tool kit, we have a system to mix and match to run ANY setting. (Eg Pulp, Urban Fantasy, Horror, Planetary Romance, Post Apoc etc etc.) This basis could be then be added to with detailed world settings, gear books etc.

Please Crafty, could you make FS and Psionics the next targets after the current batch of products???

We will not be publishing FS. It is Scott's property now, following his departure from the company.
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Goodlun
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« Reply #121 on: July 16, 2010, 03:50:36 PM »

Goodlun, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I agree completely. With 10K + SC3 + FC + FS + a Psionics tool kit, we have a system to mix and match to run ANY setting. (Eg Pulp, Urban Fantasy, Horror, Planetary Romance, Post Apoc etc etc.) This basis could be then be added to with detailed world settings, gear books etc.

Please Crafty, could you make FS and Psionics the next targets after the current batch of products???

We will not be publishing FS. It is Scott's property now, following his departure from the company.

I would imagine though you have to have some sort of Sci Fi product some where in the pipeline though right?
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2010, 03:53:09 PM »

Goodlun, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I agree completely. With 10K + SC3 + FC + FS + a Psionics tool kit, we have a system to mix and match to run ANY setting. (Eg Pulp, Urban Fantasy, Horror, Planetary Romance, Post Apoc etc etc.) This basis could be then be added to with detailed world settings, gear books etc.

Please Crafty, could you make FS and Psionics the next targets after the current batch of products???

We will not be publishing FS. It is Scott's property now, following his departure from the company.

I would imagine though you have to have some sort of Sci Fi product some where in the pipeline though right?

None that we will be talking about for a good long while...
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« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2010, 03:53:50 PM »

Quote from: Goodlun link=topic=3672.msg70042#msg70042 date=1279313436
I would imagine though you have to have some sort of Sci Fi product some where in the pipeline though right?
[/quote

Ok that was a stupid question as Sci Fi as a genre in it self is way to far reaching.  
I should have said a futurist product or a space opera product of sorts.  
I mean one could easily do certain genres of Sci Fi rather easily with FC as it is.  
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« Reply #124 on: July 16, 2010, 04:00:47 PM »

In some ways a futuristic supplement might be enough. With that alone you can cover a multitude of different sci-fi genres. Combine it with 10KB and I'd imagine you'd have something resembling cyber punk. Combine it with Fantasy Craft and you'd have a straight-up space opera.
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« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2010, 04:20:55 PM »

It's nice to hear that you don't hate everything about the game, Grump, but in all seriousness, you're upset because the game doesn't do exactly what you want it to do, when you pick it up - which is in itself pretty unreasonable, given that we don't live inside your head. Even if we did, we would be remiss to build a game that perfectly suited only one person, or even a small selection of folks. That's not the way to build a game community, and certainly not the way to build a game company.

What you're trying to do is pretty well afield of any stated or even apparent goal for Fantasy Craft. We never said the game would operate flawlessly in a Victorian or steam environment, nor did we put out ads courting the steampunk and/or Space 1889 crowds. Fantasy Craft focuses on the kind of fantasy gaming most people do - which means primarily medieval high adventure fiction (that last word's critical, as even a passing glance at the vast majority of fantasy games in every medium clearly shows most people's tastes leave realism in the dust).

Quote
My tastes run more to the simulationist end of things than the rules really allow for.

This would be one of the primary reasons I humbly suggest you consider sticking with Spycraft 2.0. Mastercraft will not be supporting your desired level of simulationism. Indeed, one of the stated goals of Mastercraft is to ratchet that back - to simplify and simulate less.

Quote
But every time I try to use FC for an Industrial game I end up hating the game, even though there are so many things about it that I like. Hell, after spending the better part of a night trying to get the FC rules to fit my setting I hate everyone and everything.

*EDIT* All of this is why I am posting this in the 'Mixed Feelings' thread, not starting a new thread titled 'Grrr... I hate Fantasy Craft, The Forge, Everyone and Everything! Die, Die, Die!*' tempting though it may be when trying to hammer the rules to fit a setting that I had really hoped that it could handle on its own.

* Die, Die, Die, DIE!

Seriously man, back away slowly. I can virtually guarantee you won't be satisfied with Mastercraft, even after Gear for the Ages, and I'd rather not feel responsible for a burst blood vessel. It's not worth this level of anxiety - it's a game, and if you're not enjoying it you shouldn't be playing.
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Patrick Kapera
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #126 on: July 16, 2010, 04:25:07 PM »

As to talk of other genres, we'll say it again - 2009-2010 is our fantasy period with Fantasy Craft, and 2011 and the immediate future will be our modern period with Spycraft Third and Ten Thousand Bullets. Will we eventually do sci fi/future material? Probably. Do we have any immediate plans? Not in any form close enough to fret about.

"Everything in its own time." You know we do good work or you wouldn't be here. Would you prefer that we did sloppy, fast work to get everything out at once (coincidentally imploding the company and ceasing to exist at the same time)? I doubt it. Let us do modern - just modern - right, and not drop the ball with fantasy in the meanwhile, and when we get to the future you'll be confident we'll give it the same care and attention.

Thanks!
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2010, 04:37:14 PM »

As to talk of other genres, we'll say it again - 2009-2010 is our fantasy period with Fantasy Craft, and 2011 and the immediate future will be our modern period with Spycraft Third and Ten Thousand Bullets. Will we eventually do sci fi/future material? Probably. Do we have any immediate plans? Not in any form close enough to fret about.

"Everything in its own time." You know we do good work or you wouldn't be here. Would you prefer that we did sloppy, fast work to get everything out at once (coincidentally imploding the company and ceasing to exist at the same time)? I doubt it. Let us do modern - just modern - right, and not drop the ball with fantasy in the meanwhile, and when we get to the future you'll be confident we'll give it the same care and attention.

Thanks!

I actually don't even want to run a sci-fi game. I'm just thinking theory, here. At least with me, you need feel no pressure. The last thing I want to not only to pressure you, but to pressure you to do something entirely different from what I actually want.

As it is, I want the Time of High Adventure & The Adventure Companion, so I'm perfectly content right now.
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2010, 04:49:01 PM »

As it is, I want the Time of High Adventure & The Adventure Companion, so I'm perfectly content right now.

Those happen to be the books Alex and I are working on this weekend (he on the AC and myself on ToHA), so at least we've got you covered. Smiley

Thanks for your support.
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2010, 04:50:52 PM »

I actually don't even want to run a sci-fi game. I'm just thinking theory, here. At least with me, you need feel no pressure. The last thing I want to not only to pressure you, but to pressure you to do something entirely different from what I actually want.

While we listen to you guys and your thoughts on our work, you should probably know we're basically external-pressure-immune. It's the internal pressure that always crushes us flat.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be a company of workaholics.

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As it is, I want the Time of High Adventure & The Adventure Companion, so I'm perfectly content right now.

You should be far more content inside about 3 months... Cheesy
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« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2010, 04:55:01 PM »

Actuaqlly, I think FC and 10kB/SC3 will let you run almost all of the scifi that the system is suited too. Especially with the cyber rules around here somewhere.

The 'suited for' part there is crucial though.

Truly hard scifi, well, Traveler, Eclipse Phase, or GURPS Transhuman Space covers those quite well, and Mekton Z has the Gundam/Yamato/Macross/etc covered.

I think MC would potentially run Schlock Mercenary beautifully though.

What can I say, book six just came and has me rereading the archives. Smiley

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Goodlun
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« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2010, 11:41:21 PM »

I say keep up the good work, what you guys have in my humble opinion is a very nice engine to run a nice "game"  me and my group enjoy it very much.  I will happily wait for products if it means getting the same quality.  I think by far its the best balance of roll playing and role playing out in the market right now with just enough meat to keep me satisfied.  It is also one of the few systems that I haven't had to house rule a bunch of stuff or said gee that is just silly.  My only complaint is the PDF heavy nature of things while I DO understand the economics of it I just hate to pay for digital only content.
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« Reply #132 on: July 17, 2010, 12:26:44 AM »

My only complaint is the PDF heavy nature of things while I DO understand the economics of it I just hate to pay for digital only content.

While we'll continue to do some original PDF products, I think you'll find our future plans much more to your liking.
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Patrick Kapera
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TheAuldGrump
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« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2010, 12:41:48 AM »

Quote
*EDIT* All of this is why I am posting this in the 'Mixed Feelings' thread, not starting a new thread titled 'Grrr... I hate Fantasy Craft, The Forge, Everyone and Everything! Die, Die, Die!*' tempting though it may be when trying to hammer the rules to fit a setting that I had really hoped that it could handle on its own.

* Die, Die, Die, DIE!

Seriously man, back away slowly. I can virtually guarantee you won't be satisfied with Mastercraft, even after Gear for the Ages, and I'd rather not feel responsible for a burst blood vessel. It's not worth this level of anxiety - it's a game, and if you're not enjoying it you shouldn't be playing.
The 'Die, Die, Die, DIE!' was intended humorously, or as close to humorously as I could achieve after four hours of trying to hammer automatic weapons fire to fit Fantasy Craft. I kept running into the fact that the prices in FC have no bearing on any period of history - so while I know how much a Gatling gun cost in the real world (less than $870 in 1870 dollars - a bargain!) trying to do so for FC was an exercise in futility. The real world does not always tie price to effectiveness, but FC, for the most part, does try to do so.

Doing an identical conversion for Spycraft took less than half an hour, in large part because I could just use real world cost. Having the automatic fire rules already present, and not needing to try to match prices makes a huge difference. I just matched rate of fire, caliber, and added a few qualities (would you believe that a Gatling is inaccurate? Who knew? Tongue ) and had working numbers.

Add to this the fact that I wanted those rules and prices for the game either this coming Saturday or the next and it became very irritating indeed. There was a cap on how much time I could spend messing with this.

The game is being postponed for a week in any event - not because of the rules problems, but because I am running sound at a concert. I almost forgot about it, but had actually told everyone about it over a month ago. I could have avoided the dyspepsia and at least some of the frustration just by looking at the calendar. I will run the kids' game, then head off to Roll & Go at the Irish Heritage Center.

One problem is that FC does not go into enough detail to extrapolate from. As an example, what is the poundage of a heavy cannon in FC? With a 200 lb. listed carriage weight the thing can't be firing anything larger than a 3 lb. ball, not exactly a siege cannon, closer to a deck gun, though not the same kind listed as deck gun in the rules.... (Not really a fault this time - a deck gun was any gun that set upon the deck. So a swivel gun does count.) Any small cannon could fit the description, but it sure as heckfire ain't a heavy cannon. (A demi-cannon, firing a 12 lb. ball weighed in at 4,000 lbs....)

I have pretty much decided to skip MC, at least so far as any steampunk games go - this last discussion just annoyed the heck out of me, since it does not seem to need a mind reader to tell that when I said that I wanted enough information to run an Industrial game what I really meant was that I wanted enough information to run an Industrial game.

You don't need to 'live in my head' to tell that there just plain is not enough info to run an Industrial game. Given how little there was I should not have even tried to do so. And no, you did not promise the ability to do so, but I still wonder why even mention it if you aren't going to cover it?

The problem is that I really want to run modern/post modern fantasy games, and I like the FC rules for many of the components. I wanted the Gargoyles to be 'plug 'n' play' for multiple settings. There are many parts that I like enough that I don't want to give up on the game. The choking point is always that one chapter, and not even all of that chapter. But the rules in that chapter are so integrated that trying to pull one piece free causes problems in others.

On the poisons, once I decided to just completely redo the toxin rules a good deal of annoyance went away - I am breaking down poisons in a completely different fashion, and will try to make it semi compatible withSC2/MC/D20.* Prices will be closer to those of SC, simply because it is pretty easy just to look the real world prices up. (All too often 'free' would be the real world price. Sodium Azide is disturbingly easy to acquire, and is more lethal than cyanide. Sad )

A professional poisoner will charge for cyanide by effectiveness, but a home crafter may find that the stuff just grows on trees... but try not to fumble the crafting rolls. In the 1800s (and into the 1940s), cyanide could be purchased as an insecticide, you just had to sign for it in the Poisons book.
.
Even for the 1600s game, it suits my purposes better to be able to describe real world effects

The Auld Grump, tired enough to be approaching semi coherence....

*Tentative format -
Toxin (name of the poison), Effect/Damage and Symptoms (what it does to you, and the game effects thereof), Onset (how long until symptoms appear), Potence (save DC), duration (how long between saves), Severity (Maximum number of saves until the poison runs its course), Notes (just general stuff, ya know?). Default rule is that three successful saves in a row means that it ran its course early.

Deadly Nightshade: Dizziness and Paralysis, 1/2 hour onset, Fort. save 12, 1 hour duration, maximum of 12 saves. Note: succeeding on the initial save indicates that the victim begins vomiting, sickened for 10 minutes, but gaining +2 to subsequent saves against the effects of the poisoning. A critically failed initial save doubles the duration of the poison. A victim can drift in and out of paralysis multiple times. Price: A walk in the woods....

*EDIT* Snipped to reduce size.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 12:55:52 AM by TheAuldGrump » Logged

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« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2010, 01:37:33 AM »

Wow, that sounded crankier than I intended. Sorry about that. It was intended to be an olive branch, but I seem to have picked poison ivy instead....

I should probably add that I am at least 90% happy with Fantasy Craft, and that it should work just fine for a Reason Era game, if I ever get it off the ground. I just need to add the rules for a few weapons and the poisons. (And change around some species, fiddle with magical traditions, you know, mess around with things?)

I should have just stuck with Spycraft for the Steampunk game. But some of the FC rules are so very nice - the Reputation rules in particular. Trying to do a mash up of the two, almost-but-not-quite-compatible systems was a mistake, and one compounded by trying to get them to fit together in a single sitting. Then I tried to explain while feeling cranky, and fumbled an attempt at humor.

Sorry about that. I think that I will try adding some Fantasy Craft to Spycraft, and see if that works better than the other way around.

The Auld Grump
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:39:10 AM by TheAuldGrump » Logged

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