Ok; here is a question I have. I believe in the 2.0 book you gave examples of what could be taken 9Skills and Feats) to utilize the various forms of Martial Arts that is out there. I and all of my players are Martial Artists who study different Martial Arts and have a desire to ustilize those arts in our games.
What is the potential for doing this in 3.0 and 10KB?
It really all depends on a) the roundness of presentation of Unarmed Combat in the book (IE volume) and b) how much we want to argue with the players about how much or how effectively we're simulating (example, see the long and tiring discussion on weapon weights and nomenclature in Fantasy Craft). But the determining factor here is likely how central we feel unarmed combat stuff needs to be to the genre and how much space we have to commit to it. We have not made a determination yet - but there is a lot jockeying for space in this book!
I have to say that I disagree. In a session where you are trying hard not to get caught having access to a martial art is paramount. It is not a matter of lengthy discussion and debate as in weight table. In this case the weapon is you and what you weigh is what you weigh. It is a matter of weapon loadouts and what types of weapons you are allowed. Someone also suggested that the martial arts stuff be placed in it's own book....if that were to be the case then ALL Combat needs to be taken out of the main book and given it's own book.
I'm not actually sure what you can disagree with on my statement. I understand the value of martial arts for an agent who must work unarmed, but that's not the only situation, or even the most common situation, agents face - gun combat, basic combat ability, stealth, smooth talking and a lot of other pieces are all at least equally important to spies as martial arts. Pulling Unarmed Combat out of Spycraft or 10kB entirely is not going to happen. But providing 30 different feats to represent various pieces of unarmed combat necessary to make any martial art you want is going to cost space when space is at a premium, and we have to balance those factors against one another. This is mostly an issue about book-building, not a judgement against martial arts as a game mechanic
As for whether debate would be generated over a simple system: I have had the martial arts debate a number of times during design meetings, and there's 2 forces pulling at this system - simulation vs. flexibility. I, personally, know very little detail about martial arts beyond core striking and defense techniques (haymakers, blocking, etc.) and so I might be a guy who would take package of feats which adequately simulated what I thought represented a particular style. But then the guy who actually practices that art looks at it and goes 'that's not how it works' and we end up in the debate. And another guy who knows even less than me looks at the package and says 'how does this all work together? What's the style?' because he just wants Krav Maga or Tae Kwon Do that looks like it does in the movies. These are the challenges we face - accessibility vs. simulation.
I found it...It is a discussion on page 186 of the Pocket Guide. which goes into nice detail about the subject. After listening to your GenCon video and hearing that you might include 'Exposure' Rules, which are cool btw then you NEED to include some expanded information about hand-to-hand combat. Please.
That's good to know you liked what we presented in 2.0, because I have received other feedback that it wasn't right, or not enough, or not clear enough how it all worked in bundles. However, Spycraft 3 is not
planned as another 500 page monster tome, and the decision of what Unarmed stuff is core vs. what is extra needs to be balanced against stuff. For example, I believe effective and easy-to-use Exposure system, which has been a critical mechanic largely absent from both previous editions of Spycraft 3, is far more important to an espionage game than even more info on martial art styles - if I had to choose between the two, in the core book, I would have to take Exposure because it is a key element in nearly all of the espionage genre.
That doesn't mean we won't ever do anything with martial arts, or kick the whole thing to the curb - by any means
It just means we've got to balance our presentation. The Spycraft 2.0 book had 34 Unarmed Combat feats, nearly all of which were needed to make the list on page 186 - and World on Fire added even more. With the change of presentation of combat feats in Mastercraft, there will be fewer tricks on each feat, which in turn could lead to a demand for even *more* feats to reproduce exactly the style combinations we see in 2.0. Moreover, I don't actually know how accurate those packages are - is there stuff that's non-essential to the particular styles shown on pg. 186 that would change the packages shown there? I can come up with a rough approximation but it has to be good enough to pass muster with both crowds for it to really work for the audience. And for the guys interested in high levels of detail - of whom it sounds you are one - this is prime fodder for a supplement of some sort.
If I can find a way to do a fair number of styles using a smaller of pool of feats in the SC3 core book, I will certainly try because I do think it has value, is part of the genre and obviously some people really like the system. But that's got to be balanced against all the other stuff we're cramming in there. That's all I was saying.
I apologize for my vehemance but I do feel strongly about this. Keep up the good work.
Your feelings are noted and understood. And I hope you understand the position I have to take from a book building perspective - we've got a lot of different goals and game styles to serve in the core.