Mages (sorcerers & wizards)

[Sletchman]

You could make a custom campaign quality that tags into Sorcery.  Just off the top of my head.  It may well be riddled with problems.

Vancian Wizards [Perminant]: Every character with levels in the Mage Class must decide during character creation to be either a Sorcerer or Wizard.  Sorcerers follow the standard rules for being a Mage [including spell casting and spells known] but don't require a Mage's Kit to cast spells.

Wizards instead gain a spellbook [same cost as Mage's Pouch] which contains their known spells.  They may add to this book by finding or purchasing scrolls without limit [they still gain a number of "free" spells equal to Wis + Spellcasting Ranks - to represent acedemic training].  Wizards must prepare all their spells at the begining of each Adventure, spending all their spell points on prepared spells, they can discharge each of these prepared spells once per scene, refreshing each scene.  A Wizard may spend 1 hour to swap a prepared spell for a different one but must be able to concentrate during this time.

Special: If this quality is active the Path of Magic may not be chosen for priests without GC consent, in which case the GC decides if the Priest in question is a Sorcerer or Wizard [based on the particulars of their faith].

[aegis]

without limit

I will paraphrase Alex here. Unlimited is broken, always.

But other than that, it seems indeed quite feasible to make the wizard sort of a mage who uses vancian magic instead of spell points. Just make him need a spellbook, prepare his spells every day and use them once per scene (more if he prepared the same spell more than once, with a total number of spell levels equal to his "equivalent spell points"). On the other hand, sorcerers may have other limitations, like less spells known (Wisdom may not apply , I can see wise wizards and uncaring sorcerers), the reviled quality, etc.

[Crafty_Alex]

I like the idea of letting a "wizard" learn new spells from other sources in addition to the ones he'd gain normally from his Spellcasting skill base. The Lost Magic campaign quality has a rule of 5 x Spell Level in Rep to learn a new spell - if you wanted, dropping that to 3 x Spell Level Rep cost (min 3) would make it far more feasible for a "wizard" to learn more spells as he went.

Another idea would be to allow "wizards" to store up their Spell Points throughout the session. Thus "sorcerers" would only have their natural battery of spell points, but "wizards" could store up to unleash hell when the time was right. Counterbalancing *that* with the fact the "wizard" would have to spend all spell points pre-emptively at the beginning of each scene or session (I would go with scene, here) would bring the Vancian back in...if that's your sort of bag

[Sletchman]

Thats what you get for off the top of the head.  The whole prepared spells thing is why I always hated wizards [and clerics] in DnD, and the "no limit" was the only benefit to counteract their downsides [but I agree unlimited is universally broken].  I think they need a higher limit then existing Mage's though, as an up to the downs.  I like the idea that Sorcerer doesn't get Wis, just getting Spellcasting ranks, it does make them very focused [and makes Spell Library well worth picking up].

I like the idea of letting a "wizard" learn new spells from other sources in addition to the ones he'd gain normally from his Spellcasting skill base. The Lost Magic campaign quality has a rule of 5 x Spell Level in Rep to learn a new spell - if you wanted, dropping that to 3 x Spell Level Rep cost (min 3) would make it far more feasible for a "wizard" to learn more spells as he went.

Another idea would be to allow "wizards" to store up their Spell Points throughout the session. Thus "sorcerers" would only have their natural battery of spell points, but "wizards" could store up to unleash hell when the time was right. Counterbalancing *that* with the fact the "wizard" would have to spend all spell points pre-emptively at the beginning of each scene or session (I would go with scene, here) would bring the Vancian back in...if that's your sort of bag

Planning spells on a scene by scene basis is much less harsh then my version, and I really like the whole spend rep for more spells above and beyond your normal limit, I might use that in games I run as a stand alone feature.  Interesting idea about spell point batteries too.

[pawsplay]

Ok what Wizards are to me: They learn magic through book study or any other study that lets them benefit from accumulated knowledge of ages to cast any spell that magic alone is capable of (though not all magic need be represented in a base class otherwise what use would expert classes be) some mages specialise in some areas much as savants do in real life though a generic approach to magic is always possible. Magic for wizards is prepared, industrious and difficult...

Sorcerers on the other hand have their power inbuilt, they inherit it from either an ancestor or an event...

Honestly, I think the specialties and feat choices cover that just fine. However, if you want a mechanical difference, I think I have a solution for you. How mages learn spells is left undefined in the game. So define it.

Campaign Quality: Spell Origins
   Each time a spellcaster learns a spell, he declares it to be either imbued or rote. A caster imbues a spell by developing his natural magical gifts and practices the spell until it becomes second nature. A caster learns a rote spell by studying it, usually from a book.
   Each time a character places one or more ranks into Spellcasting, he can swap out one imbued spell for a different spell. Rote spells can be exchanged by spending one day of downtime per Level of the new spell, or any number of 0-level spells can be exchanged in one day. Rote spells are limited to those on hand; each time a spellcaster learns a rote spell, he gains a copy of the spell on hand; additional spells may be gained from a teacher or from a detailed source and kept on hand (but must be exchanged as usual in order to actually learn and cast them). If a learned spell was limited to a certain level, school, or discipline, such as the free spells gained from the Arcane Adept ability, the spells must be exchanged for other spells that are eligible.

[pawsplay]

Without changing anything up in the core rules:

Human, Striking/Svelte/Charismatic Talent, Sorcerer Specialty, Mage Class
You have a high Charisma character with a bonus Species feat. The higher Cha means higher spell DCs. You have a charismatic, beguiling and slightly scary character with otherwordly powers or unusual personal gifts who can cast powerful spells.

Human, Gifted/Educated/Intelligent Talent, Wizard Specialty, Mage Class
Classic high Intelligence caster, who benefits from really high Spellcasting rolls.

Human, Savvy/Vigilant/Wise Talent, Wizard Specialty, Mage Class
This is the "knows lots of spells" guy.

Note that Arcane Might means that any Mage is going to be further accentuated as he gains levels.

[Foghorn]

You may also want to take a look at the Spellbound series. They only have the Channeler and Seer right now, but they only gain spells from a 1 School of magic and might represent sorcerers the way you're looking for a little better. They are Spycraft books, but the conversion isn't difficult and I'm pretty sure it's in the wiki.

[Crafty_Alex]

Good call, Foghorn. Spellbound presents another way to handle the limited nature of sorcerers without mucking with core rules.

I scripted this in a moment of inspiration (and distraction from work) :


Vancian Magic (Permanent): In campaigns with this quality, some arcane casters may use magic only with careful preparation and study, rather than simple innate talent. When an arcane caster gains his first ranks in Spellcasting, he must choose whether he wants to be a “spontaneous caster” or a “prepared caster.” This choice may not be altered after it is made – it forever shapes the arcane caster's future.

Spontaneous casters follow all rules for Spellcasting as described in Chapter 3 of Fantasy Craft. Prepared casters, on the other hand, follow a number of special rules:

• Prepared casters may never cast a spell without a kit.
• At the beginning of each scene, the prepared caster may spend any number of his spell points to prepare castings of spells he knows for this scene (i.e. if the prepared caster wanted to cast Fireball, a Level 3 spell, twice and Magic Missile, a Level 1 spell, 4 times during the upcoming scene, he would spend 10 Spell Points). Preparing each casting of a spell requires 10 minutes of uninterrupted concentration per Spell Point spent. The caster may only cast Level 0 and prepared spells during the course of this scene. Additional spell points may be spent at the time the Spellcasting check is made to add Spellcasting tricks as normal.
• At the end of the scene, any of the prepared caster’s remaining spell points are carried over into the following scene. All unspent spell points are lost at the end of the session.
• Prepared casters may learn additional new spells (beyond those provided from his Spellcasting skill, feats, class abilities, etc.) between adventures by spending a number of Reputation equal to 3 x Spell Level. Alternatively, the GM may provide new spells as an instant reward or treasure (see Fantasy Craft, page XX). Learning a new spell in this fashion requires a number of days of Downtime equal to the Spell’s level (as the sorcerer spends his time in uninterrupted study).

[esoclectica]

Here is a different look at semi Vancian magic.  It uses 3 changes to standard rules.  1st change, to have a magic library you must have a holding with the library in it.  If the library is lost or destroyed it's benefits are lost.  The magic library feat may be taken multiple times as set by the GM.  Wizards may only 'memorize' the standard number of spells<have them on hand for normal use> as set by their class, feats etc.  While at their holding they may use their magic library to change which spells they have 'memorized'.

EX:  Blair the Witch has a level 4 holding with 2 feats in magic library, aka Magic Library 2.  This allows her to 'store' 8 spells in her magic library while memorizing the rest.  By coming back to her holding and visiting her library she can remove up to 8 of her spells from memory and replace them with spells from her library. 

This retains the standard game combat restriction on available spells while still allowing flexibility and the option of learning more of those neat spells. 

[Nova]

Tank: One thing stood out in your last post:

A wizard should be more powerful but less flexible than a sorcerer even though he has access to a wider range of spells (he has to pick them beforehand as molding his own mind takes too much time)

The two most powerful AND flexible classes in the 3.x universe are the Wizard and the Cleric, bar none. Nothing can be "optimized" to anywhere NEAR the universe-violating levels of power, partly BECAUSE of their versatility, than those two classes. The only real "exception" is, in fact, the existance of many of those full-caster-level PRC's, that give you a wizard or cleric with extra bonus things at little to no cost. A sorcerer is actually a distant second to these guys.

 The wider range of spells IS versatility: once you know all the spells a sorcerer can learn, he's quite possibly screwed ifyou ARE wanting to go after him. you know everything he can do, and can probably counter all of it, if, say, you're a wizard. The wider range of spells IS power: They don't hurt any more or less in most cases, but can be guaranteed to be exactly what you need for the situation.

At higher levels, the lower number of spells per day of a wizard is virtually a non-issue, due to his greater per-spell output, and the ability to have all the required spells beforehand. Preparation also becomes virtually unrestrictive as divinations, special abilities, time manipulation and generalist spells (like shades), as well as the less reactionary tendencies of high level characters (less "oh crap its a dragon get in the buggy" and more "we're going after THESE things in THIS place today") all ensure the wizard has exactly what he needs, when he needs it. And then there's all the contingencies. Those bonus metamagics really do come in handy here. only at low levels is the preparation of meta'd spells really a "troublesome" issue. the minor loss of flexibility in that one field is more than made up for in later levels.

Now, this aside, you gave a pretty good description of what you want. Mechanically, most of it is easily covered by flavor, character choices (like pawsplay's list) and the existing rules: both cast spells with the same mechanics, and while a wizard may technically potentially know every known spell, there's far less in FC to know (I counted 288), and this includes things that "were" cleric-only or the like in 3.x.  Realistically speaking, its virtually impossible that any given wizard in that system would ever know more than maybe half of the existing spells, if even that much. Its a long, slow process to aquire them all, and even liches get bored and move on to other existances long before they get there.

 Its easily covered by letting'em have spell library a few times, having bonus spells learned from increasing your spellcasting rank, and so on. The big differences would more likely be a story issue, perhaps with vastly different orders/learning-centers/whathaveyou, and the availability of some specific lines of spells to one or the other (difficult magic comes in handy here)

Meanwhile, sorcerers really only have an advantage in that they can cast a few more times a day; pretty much represented by letting one grab spell power a few times, the act of which directly impedes their ability to power up and add versatility: those feats have to come from somewhere.

The best thing I can come up with, is to allow a simple choice at level 2.
Arcane Might, or Arcane Education.

Arcane Education:
You learn an additional spell every time you gain a caster level. This new spell also comes with a +1 bonus to spellcasting checks.
At the beginning of each adventure, you must prepare up to your Wisdom+Lifestyle scores in spells that you know. These are the only available spells to you for the duration of your adventure; all other spells are "stored" in your holdings or libraries. Once per scene as a free action, you may exchange a currently prepared spell for any other of your known spells so long as you have access to a spellbook or a holding's spellcasting workshop. This increases to twice per scene at career level 11.

Or somethin like that. When it comes down to the actual spellslinging, they're both very similar after all...

[Sletchman]

You may also want to take a look at the Spellbound series. They only have the Channeler and Seer right now, but they only gain spells from a 1 School of magic and might represent sorcerers the way you're looking for a little better. They are Spycraft books, but the conversion isn't difficult and I'm pretty sure it's in the wiki.

Thats precisely what I've been doing, and it works out pretty well for my money.

Nice work on the Vancian Magic quality Alex, captures what I was trying to but in much better language.  You have "10 minutes of Interrupted concentration" - do you mean uninterupted?

[Crafty_Alex]

Nice work on the Vancian Magic quality Alex, captures what I was trying to but in much better language.  You have "10 minutes of Interrupted concentration" - do you mean uninterupted?

Thanks T. And yes, that should be "uninterrupted" - the interrupted concentration's what I'm accustomed to