Brainstorming Space-Opera skills

[Agent 333]

Hmm, I've never heard of RCN. I've heard of Dune, but have no idea how FTL works there...

Either way, Astrogation as a skill makes little sense to me. Even take, for example, Warhammer 40k's warp travel. You need an Astropath (or whatever they're called, I forget) to even traverse the warp, and navigation is all done psychically... and I'd never want to play an Astropath character. I suppose someone might, but even then, it seems to me more like a Feat type advantage than a new skill.

Skilled Astrogator
You've mastered the hazards between worlds...
Benefit: Any ship you are piloting increases it's travel speed by +50%.

[Krensky]

With the Lightnings, the first book of the Republic of Cinnabar Navy series:
http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0671578863/0671578863.htm

Astrogation is most certainly a skill in the RCN series. Success or failure can determine time or even success of a journey. There's a number of sequences in the series where the hero's skill at navigation are crucial to the main characters' survival, as much as the other character's marksmanship, stealth, ruthlessness, craftiness, or other skills.

There are other settings where astrogation is a skill on the same level. Frankly, I can't imagine astrogation not being a skill or a check in any setting where navigation is more complex then pushing a button and waiting for the ship to arrive.

[snake]

... machine intelligences...

Unborn?

Good point MilitiaJim.

Morg, what are your plans for artificial lifeforms in FS ?

How about renaming Unborn to Robot and having Android and Synthetic as Species Feats ?. Some sort of robots are a must for Space Opera games !!

A few examples would be:

Robot (Robbie the Robot, Robot from Lost in Space, Old Cylons)
Android (C3PO, R2D2)
Synthetic (Cmd Data, Bishop, New Cylons)

 

[Sletchman]

On synthetics - I'm currently pondering [while procrastinating] a sorta robotic macro-species [for fallout purposes].  The idea I had was that you would take it as a race choice, which had core racial abilities, and then pick a model, which gave you additional benefits based on how you were built.

One of the ways I was considering doing this was building a version of Special Construction into the origin, but I'm not sure if that will work out.  My theory is that it should work out because a specific feat costs 3 origin points, and usually gives 3 origin points worth of benefits, on average.  I'm hoping it will work out neater then the old macro origin style, at least in terms of formatting.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Frankly, I can't imagine astrogation not being a skill or a check in any setting where navigation is more complex then pushing a button and waiting for the ship to arrive.

But "Are those two methods any different in terms of story progression?" is the main question that has to be answered.  It's sounds like Astrogation is important enough to need to be a mechanical choice, but incidental unless haste is an important part of the story (since otherwise you can simply assume that all necessary time is taken to get it right).  This suggests what resource choosing Astrogation should be similarly incidental: my guess would be Interests.  If more mechanics than a simple "+1 to certain checks" perhaps Interests could be expanded into a sort of Skill-type Tricks system so choosing that Interest also gives things like "Hasty Calculation (Astrogation Pilot trick): In return for accepting a +1 error range you can make your Calculation check in half the time."

[Krensky]

Or we could use the system that uses a resource supposed to reflect practice and study and that allows graduated success.

Traveller style jump drives require it. RCN's style matrix navigation requires it.

Now, you could split it into two checks, one under tactics and one under another skill depending on the feel desired. The nature of Astrogation changes from one setting to another, and often in a setting depending on the circumstances. Real space and hyperspace navigation are different beasts as an example.

Now for most space opera, astrogation is hard and while success makes you get there faster and failure can make things take longer, drop you in an unexpected location (adventure!) or kill you outright.

Heck, MC as a whole suffers from not having a proper skill or check for navigation or orienteering. Survival is close enough for orienteering, but I'm still not comfortable with it for navigation (blue water sailing in this context).

[Krensky]

Or we could use the system that uses a resource supposed to reflect practice and study and that allows graduated success.

Traveller style jump drives require it. RCN's style matrix navigation requires it.

Now, you could split it into two checks, one under tactics and one under another skill depending on the feel desired. The nature of Astrogation changes from one setting to another, and often in a setting depending on the circumstances. Real space and hyperspace navigation are different beasts as an example.

Now for most space opera, astrogation is hard and while success makes you get there faster and failure can make things take longer, drop you in an unexpected location (adventure!) or kill you outright.

Heck, MC as a whole suffers from not having a proper skill or check for navigation or orienteering. Survival is close enough for orienteering, but I'm still not comfortable with it for navigation (blue water sailing in this context).

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Or we could use the system that uses a resource supposed to reflect practice and study and that allows graduated success.

But do we really need that much simulation?  (Plus you can take Interests multiple times.)

I question how game-useful a separate skill is even in settings where you point out skill is needed to navigate.  What does the skill do?  Determines the time taken for one kind of activity, in one context, and determines whether there are any unexpected outcomes.  That's narrow compared to most other skills (Haggle being one that doesn't seem so broad, and which does tend to bother me).  Starships would have to become a very significant part of the game for me to see a skill for just Astrogation being necessary, and so far MasterCraft seems built for enough person-level interaction that it would be a big change to shift the focus enough.

My guess is that Astrogation would be best folded into something else.  If Interests don't work then another skill: a skill for computers or piloting.  I think we could fold Astrogation and use of computers and other high technology into a new skill (which might overlap with Craft (electronics) or whatnot, but I honestly think overlapping skills is a good thing): Technology, which could have foci like Craft does, Sensors, Weapons, Robot Programming, Astrogation, I don't know what.  If Astrogation is normally done with computers then it does make sense it would be part of larger computer/technology use.

Survival is close enough for orienteering, but I'm still not comfortable with it for navigation (blue water sailing in this context).

What's wrong with it?  And you can always assume anyone who can pilot a ship (Ride) can navigate.  Why the desire to split up skills so finely?

[Sletchman]

Or we could use the system that uses a resource supposed to reflect practice and study and that allows graduated success.

Like studies and knowledge checks?

That's narrow compared to most other skills (Haggle being one that doesn't seem so broad, and which does tend to bother me).

Our group has replaced Haggle with Streetwise, since Streetwise and its uses disappeared [or became sample knowledge for Haggle], and it used to contain Haggle checks.  Makes it a little less thin.

[Krensky]

Because it's setting dependent.

In some settings, it's inconsequential. In some it's central to FTL.

Now, I am not saying it's a skill, but it certainly is a check.

As for using Ride to shoot a latitude... I'm already uncomfortable about one skill covering horses, carts, boats, ships, and balloons; SC2.0 handled it so much better. Using a compass, log, sextant, chart, and chronometer as a ride check is just way to far of a stretch. Navigation is a specialized skill that is only tangentially related to helming a ship.

Similarly electrical engineering and programing are different skill sets in the real world, and typically are so in fiction. My mind boggles and my brain rails against this continual drive to reduce a robust skill system to a single "Do Stuff (Any)" skill. FC goes about as far as I can tolerate, and even then I'm going to have to pull the Drive focus rules from SC2.0.

Technology as a skill... bleh.
Astrogation as an interest... double bleh.
Crafting to use equipment... you get the idea.

Why on Earth do people want to abstract the skill system out of meaningful existance?

[MilitiaJim]

Why on Earth do people want to abstract the skill system out of meaningful existence?

There need to be enough skills/interests/proficiencies that characters can be quite different, yet few enough that you can be awesome at more than two things.

In this case it is an attempt to generalize to an entire genre skills/skillsets that are setting specific:  Looking at the Star Wars movies and books Astrogation is a subset of one skill.  You're using the computer to maybe optimize a generally plotted route Han Solo has better ways to spend his skill points than astrogation.  Lt Leary has maxed his skill ranks, spent at least one feat and possibly a species feat; in the different universe it makes perfect sense.

There are a few issues to sort out for this thread, the preliminary astrogation question is:  Are we doing a totally generic SF setting, or do we want to present two or three different ways depending on its importance to the plot.

The next question is how many different vehicle proficiencies do you want.  (Ride is drive by another name.)

[Krensky]

The next question is how many different vehicle proficiencies do you want.  (Ride is drive by another name.)

Not the proficiencies. The checks.

Personal vehicles used Acrobatics, large crewed vessels use Tactics, animals use Survival, etc.

[Agent 333]

Knowledge checks are used to navigate, and having a compass, sextant, or map gives you a bonus (as a GM, I might allow those bonuses to stack, depending on circumstances).
In space... honestly, the distances are so vast I have a hard time believing any system wherein a human would be better at navigating than a computer. Admittedly Space Opera brings to mind a softer side of Sci-Fi than another term might conjure, but still...

Han didn't do the calculations himself, he just had to wait a few moments for the NaviComputer to do the calculations for him.

Any Astrogation skill would be setting specific, and probably too narrow to waste valuable skill points on. How often do you require players to make a skill check to get to the plot? Starships move at the speed of plot: If you need to get there on time, you will, if the plot requires you be just too late, however fast you go won't be fast enough. Does anything in between really matter?

[Krensky]

You've never played Traveller, have you?

Or read, coming back to it, the RCN series?

It depends on the setting.

[Agent 333]

You've never played Traveller, have you?

Or read, coming back to it, the RCN series?

It depends on the setting.

No, I have not. If you'd care to elaborate, perhaps you can convince me. What about the way FTL works in those settings makes it easier for a human to navigate distances the brain can barely comprehend better than a computer?