That Pesky Lance

[Rob Vaughn]

Ah, the lance.

It's hard to make it "work" in nearly any system, and by "work" I mean "be cool, historically somewhat accurate, yet not over/underpowered."

I dunno if anyone with more play experience in this system than I has run into the issue, but the idea of the lance being one-handed and doing all that crazy stuff (armor piercing, massive) when A) not mounted, or even B) not on a charging mount, seems a little kooky to me.

I guess the lower damage and the Edged forte requirement account for all the bennies, but they seem out of place. I'm imagining a Lancer player declaring his lance as his signature gear and then using it one hand, shield in the other, even when he's in the dungeon ... just doesn't work for me. I'd rather remove the Edged forte requirement, take away the AP and massive, make it L/1H make a new quality called something like "charger."

Charger: The weapon gains much of its power from the mount beneath its wielder. While wielded by a mounted character, a Charger weapon gains Lightweight. While wielded by a mounted character whose mount uses at least a half action to move before attacking this round, a Charger weapon also gains AP4 and Massive.

An alternative if you don't want to get into adding new types of weapon qualities would be to make it a d8, 19-20, M/2H weapon without Edged forte, but with its own Melee Combat Mastery series (one that's automatically granted to Lancers, maybe, or added to an Origin?). The first in the series could allow it to gain cavalry and allow you to wield 1-handed while mounted; the second could give you a trick that gives it AP 4 and Massive if your mount has used at least a half action to move this turn; the third could give you essentially the Charge (Run Trick) from the Charging Basics feat, but only when wielding a lance; and if you already have that feat, you gain a benefit along the lines of "When you Charge, your attacks with a lance gain Keen 4" or maybe "When you Charge, your attacks with a lance increase AP by 4."

Thoughts?

[ludomastro]

I had never even considered that someone would try to use a lance without being mounted.  And, frankly, I simply wouldn't allow it.

However, that said, I think your proposal is going in the right direction and could work for your concern.  

On a personal note, I would go with something like this:

Charger - This weapon can NOT be effectively used unless the wielder is mounted.  If the wielder is not mounted, treat the weapon as an improvised quarterstaff with the massive quality that inflicts a -2 attack penalty.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Charger - This weapon can NOT be effectively used unless the wielder is mounted.  If the wielder is not mounted, treat the weapon as an improvised quarterstaff with the massive quality that inflicts a -2 attack penalty.

I'd prefer this as it's simpler and could probably be used on other weapons that this issue might come up on.

Although I think it's supposed to be that it only works while mounted and charging.

[pawsplay]

A lance is just a spear.

[Rob Vaughn]

A lance is just a spear.

Not sure what you mean. A lance could just be represented as a spear, but in FantasyCraft it's not. Hence, the questions/ideas.

I like the Charger weapon type suggestion, but I guess I like a little more verisimilitude in my mounted combat rules, so I'd also either remove the shiny bennies unless the person was on a mount that moved at least a bit on its turn.

Upon consideration, requiring a series of feats to make it function well for mounted combat is just one more thing that might dissuade a player from creating a cool mounted combat character (the other being fear of not getting to use their mounts as much as they'd like). So I probably won't head that direction.

[Morgenstern]

Things to be aware of when looking at the lance as a stat line: cavalry quality does nothing when not mounted. Massive does very little while not mounted other than create a minimum Strength requirement (it only knocks down smaller critters, which makes mounting up to gain a size category or 2 very useful). So while not mounted, what you really have is a spear with AP 4 and reach 1 - completely comperable to the other spears (on foot I would totally take a boar spear over a lance).

It ONLY shines when mounted.

[pawsplay]

Not sure what you mean. A lance could just be represented as a spear, but in FantasyCraft it's not. Hence, the questions/ideas.

I mean that it's a synonum for spear. In fact, it originally meant "javelin."

When I say, "A lance is a spear," I mean a lance is pole with a stabbing point on the end. The lance in FC is simply a specialized cavalry weapon. There is no reason to suppose it's ineffective on the ground, except that it loses its primary advantages. There is no problem I can see with someone stabbing someone to death with a lance while dismounted. This is partially a response to the OP in which you were discussing how to make the lance weaker on horseback, as well as a comment toward someone who said they would not allow a lance to be used dismounted. I would consider it highly illogical to disallow a lance to be used dismounted.

For most of the early medieval period, lances lacked the specialized features seen in later tilting weapons. They were, precisely, unusually heavy spears with reinforced heads, and they did not have a distinct identity as a weapon for some time. The fact that they later acquired such distinct traits does not remove their original functionality.

[MilitiaJim]

Don't forget that until the Mongols got to Europe mounted men were lacking one key element to make the lance such a deadly shock weapon:  The stirrup.  Without stirrups you are just as likely to unhorse yourself as shank the poor bugger you just ran down.

[Inkthinker]

If you're imagining a "lance" as a tourney weapon with a mounted plate ("vamplate") about 1/4 of the way up to shield the hand and prevent it from sliding up the shaft upon impact, then on the ground I would treat that as an improvised pike with a small penalty for awkward application.

That is, assuming you consider a "spear" to be a blade-tipped pole up to 10 feet long, and a "pike" as anything longer than that.

A lance can be used effectively without stirrups (according to Dr. Wiki, Byzantine cavalry used both overarm and couched long spears), but you might impose a check to prevent being dismounted violently if they actively use it in a charging attack.

[pawsplay]

Those are all good points, Inkthinker. I think the lack of a brace and such is covered pretty well by other spears lacking massive. Maybe early lances could be treated as spears with the cavalry customization, but basically I think in FC terms any kind of specialized lance, whether early or late era, would have the same basic characteristics (massive, AP, cavalry, reach).