Questions on the era of FC guns.

[Inkthinker]

C'mon folks, we make up worlds, we're not bound by history. The original point (as I understood it) was questioning the legitimacy of firearms, possibly somewhat advanced firearms, in a Fantasy world.

What I was saying is that you can justify it, if you set down some ground rules to keep them from being overwhelming.

I mean, in a world with magic, one would wonder why a firearm is much better than say, a rod that shoots fireballs (presuming anyone could pick it up and use it with the right command word or whatever). Hell, a fireball-shooting-rod would probably come with less penalties attached. Perhaps a gun would work better in a magic-negating field, but perhaps it's more prone to mechanical failure.

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The superiority of the sword in Japan well into the 19th century has a lot to do with ALL these factors. The authorities made possession of firearms a capital crime, even for people in authority (can't have the local lords stockpiling), the technology was largely impractical to the common warrior, and due to national isolation the actual weapons themselves were fairly rare. One man might have a gun, but that doesn't make him automatically superior to a man with a sword, unless the GM drops their end of the game.

A good example of this might be found in Kurosawa's Yojimbo, starring Toshiro Mifune. While one of the villains has a six-shooter that elevates his status amongst his cohorts, he's ultimately no match for a ronin armed with a kitchen knife and a battered katana.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I mean, in a world with magic, one would wonder why a firearm is much better than say, a rod that shoots fireballs (presuming anyone could pick it up and use it with the right command word or whatever). Hell, a fireball-shooting-rod would probably come with less penalties attached. Perhaps a gun would work better in a magic-negating field, but perhaps it's more prone to mechanical failure.

Also if for some reason antimagic isn't a feature of the world then even that advantage is out the window.

I have actually tried to think up ways to give common people fighting magic:
1. Reflavor the existing guns to be magic-shooters.
2. Allow magic to be easily learned: Ubiquitous Magic campaign quality implies that magic would be easy enough to learn that militia men with Polar Ray spells wouldn't be out of the question.

[MilitiaJim]

militia men with Polar Ray spells wouldn't be out of the question.

That 999 times out of a hundred they're using that ray to cool their beer is not the point.  The point is that guns are as common or rare as you would like.  My personal "idea player world" has magic available but rare because of its relative expense.  Line infantry aren't going to have invisibility scrolls or throw fireballs, but an SF team would have a mage of decent to high power.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

That 999 times out of a hundred they're using that ray to cool their beer is not the point.

And whatever reason you were thinking of why I wrote that I'm sure it's not what I intended.  I was just trying to offer options to people who did want to figure out a logical reason.  I do not understand the disagreement.

[Gentry]

I believe Jim's not disagreeing, especially. Just poking fun at the notion of infantrymen who could actually chill their own beer in the field.

[MilitiaJim]

I believe Jim's not disagreeing, especially. Just poking fun at the notion of infantrymen who could actually chill their own beer in the field.

Hell no I'm not.  We had to drink our Coronas warm because this world lacks ubiquitous magic, and therefore no one in the platoon could chill them.

I think we have lost sight of the original question.  Actually, I think the original question was answered a few pages ago.

What level of guns do you want your world to have?  Let us know and we will come up with a plausible reason for it being like that.

[Sletchman]

What level of guns do you want your world to have?  Let us know and we will come up with a plausible reason for it being like that.

Guns for everyone!  Free gun with every baby delivered before christmas!  Specialists with 6 guns duct taped welded together using an elaborate string setup to fire them all at once!  Unborn with guns instead of fingers - new Species Feat: Many Guns [with the benefit that instead of 2 guns, you have 7].

_{I think I need to start sleeping, 3 days of insomnia and my brain isn't sitting right.  I'm trying to come up with fallout: vegas stuff for my group in this state too.}

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I believe Jim's not disagreeing, especially. Just poking fun at the notion of infantrymen who could actually chill their own beer in the field.

Which is only a feature of the fact that Polar Ray should really be several different energy-type ray spells.  Also of lax discipline: if each trivial use of your special weapon makes you less effective in some upcoming fight there are going to start to be institutionalized penalties.

What level of guns do you want your world to have?  Let us know and we will come up with a plausible reason for it being like that.

Yeah, I gave up on the original idea -- which was to create a fantasy setting where circa 1800 guns existed so I could emulate some certain swashbuckling I'd seen -- fairly quickly.

Instead I'm more intrigued by replacing gunpowerder-and-bullet guns with some sort of magical laser equivalent.

[MilitiaJim]

I believe Jim's not disagreeing, especially. Just poking fun at the notion of infantrymen who could actually chill their own beer in the field.

Which is only a feature of the fact that Polar Ray should really be several different energy-type ray spells.  Also of lax discipline: if each trivial use of your special weapon makes you less effective in some upcoming fight there are going to start to be institutionalized penalties.

With ubiquitous magic you only get one 0 level spell once a scene.  Endure Elements is much more logistically useful than Polar Ray.  Create water would be very useful too.  Why Polar Ray when you can Strafe?

What level of guns do you want your world to have?  Let us know and we will come up with a plausible reason for it being like that.

Yeah, I gave up on the original idea -- which was to create a fantasy setting where circa 1800 guns existed so I could emulate some certain swashbuckling I'd seen -- fairly quickly.

The Golden age of Piracy, in a Pirates of the Caribbean fashion, was 1620-1720.  Throwing in magic without radically adjusting the timeline isn't so bad and it sounds like a lot of fun.

Instead I'm more intrigued by replacing gunpowerder-and-bullet guns with some sort of magical laser equivalent.

Call it an "Arcane Force Projector."  Effective range of each piece is based on length of the focusing crystal (barrel), power based on the crystal's diameter (bore).
Do you want six shots and reloading?  One shot at a time?  How much swordplay is desired may be the most important question.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

With ubiquitous magic you only get one 0 level spell once a scene.

Actually it's Wis modifier and per session.  And those are the PC rules.  Nothing says that NPCs can't have more spells.

Endure Elements is much more logistically useful than Polar Ray.  Create water would be very useful too.

But if you're still dealing with the issue of the easiest weapon to train a soldier in being magic then saving your magic for weapon use would still be logical.

Why Polar Ray when you can Strafe?

Where's the Strafe spell?

Do you want six shots and reloading?  One shot at a time?  How much swordplay is desired may be the most important question.

I don't know.  I'm not one of those people who can think about that level of questioning.  My level ends at "Can I make guns fit in to a magitech context?".  The answer being yes everything else is me not wanting to spend a lot of effort just to come up with extra weapons or logic I'm not interested in.

[MilitiaJim]

I don't know.  I'm not one of those people who can think about that level of questioning.  My level ends at "Can I make guns fit in to a magitech context?".  The answer being yes everything else is me not wanting to spend a lot of effort just to come up with extra weapons or logic I'm not interested in.

Can they fit?  Heck yes.  How do they fit is the sticky question that requires more detail.  What you want them to (not)do is the important part.  The rest we can make up for you.

Strafe and Autofire are in Spycraft, they involve using automatic weapons to shoot a whole bunch of people, or one person a whole lot, with one attack roll.  They don't fit in a fantasy context, so they aren't in FantasCraft, but would fit in Ten Thousand Bullets' noir.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

What you want them to (not)do is the important part.  The rest we can make up for you.

Well then when I know what that is I'll let you know.

[TheAuldGrump]

I don't know.  I'm not one of those people who can think about that level of questioning.  My level ends at "Can I make guns fit in to a magitech context?".  The answer being yes everything else is me not wanting to spend a lot of effort just to come up with extra weapons or logic I'm not interested in.

Can they fit?  Heck yes.  How do they fit is the sticky question that requires more detail.  What you want them to (not)do is the important part.  The rest we can make up for you.

Strafe and Autofire are in Spycraft, they involve using automatic weapons to shoot a whole bunch of people, or one person a whole lot, with one attack roll.  They don't fit in a fantasy context, so they aren't in FantasCraft, but would fit in Ten Thousand Bullets' noir.

Actually, for the Industrial era of Fantasy Craft they not only would fit - they would be essential. Their absence is one of the reasons I have decided not to convert my Steampunk game to FC. Gatling guns, the Maxim, and an only slightly ahead of schedule Mondragon - designed in 1882, patented 1887, production beginning in 1900. The first assault rifle I just shortened the time between invention, patent, and production. Slightly quirky, a trifle high maintenance, but a sweet gun.

Having a universal series of gear tables was, I feel, a mistake. A table for each era, or at least for Primitive - Feudal, Reason, Industrial would have worked better, though it might well take up too much room. Scaling the prices just does not work.  A wheellock would be much more expensive than a flintlock, less reliable, and more fragile. (Flintlocks were just plain better - easier to manufacture, easier to maintain, less susceptible to moisture, and a higher rate of fire - all because of having fewer moving parts, and a simpler spring mechanism. A fair number of wheellocks were refitted with a snapchance or flintlock.)

The Auld Grump, who wishes that there were Era books in the works....

[Sletchman]

The Auld Grump, who wishes that there were Era books in the works....

I wholeheartedly second this.  Especially if it went from "throwing rocks at targets" all the way up to "space ships and lasers".  I could finally run a deadwood meets magic campaign.

[Morgenstern]

*shrug* I'm fairly certain there are weapon on the table now that are flatly better AND cheaper than other entries but are bound by the era of introduction. Thats a trend that would just continue as more gear from later eras is added to the table. Even melee weapons see some of that with very effective collapsable battons and other modern contrivances being applied to ancient weapons with the cost for the typical citzen still being lower that their historical despite being a specialty item.

There is an obvious shift in the empahsis of ranged combat in later years (saloon brawls with Tenessee toothpicks aside). Aside from incorporating auto-fire, strafe, suppressive fire, and cover fire actions and the weapon stat-lines themselves, is there much else missing?