Feat/Trick combo question.

[Nazralte]

One of my players is going Saurian (Jungle Clutch) / Martial Artist.

He is thinking of this combo of feats and I wonder if it works.

First he wants to use the Sword and Fist and Two Hit Combo feats at the same time. Not really sure if they could be used at the same time...

However, saying he could by taking a -4 for the round, using a chain for the weapon, could he start with the chain and use the Entwine trick (whip mastery) to pull a foe into an adjacent square, trip the person, and follow up with 3 unarmed attacks (per S&F and THC) ? 

My initial thoughts were you wouldnt be able to use the trick since the feat says just a standard attack. Then upon reading the trick and seeing the trip, I wonder what would happen if the trip failed, ect.

[Khaalis]

Tough call.

* Two-Hit Combo specifically states making 2 "unarmed" Standard Attacks.
* Sword & Fist specifically states making 1 Standard attack with a held weapon and 1 unarmed Standard attack.

By RAW, I'd say technically you could stack the -4 penalty to use both half actions to gain the 4 attacks (though at the -4 penalty to hit) since technically "unarmed" attacks can be feet, elbows, knees, hands, etc. However, that's all you can do other than the bonus 5 ft. step.

As for the trick, yes it can stack with a feat. The trick applies to any whip attack action, in this case its a Standard Attack (whip). You can only apply 1 trick however.

[Nazralte]

I was thinking the feats could be used together, since Two Hit Combo doesn't specifically state that both hands need to be open. Doesnt even say that any have to be open actually, heh.

I just wasnt sure about using the trick in conjuction with the Sword and Fist feat. But if it can be used, cool. Should be an interesting combo.

[spinningdice]

I'd have to check my books, but I'd say no. I'm pretty sure they say you can 2 attacks, not 1 additional attack. Obviously you could use both in a round under seperate actions, but not both as part of the same action.

[aegis]

I think he meant "together, during the same round". And indeed, using these two feats implies only a -4 to attack and no risk of being flat-footed. On the other hand, you can't use both of them during a surprise round (while you can use the feats that give you 4 attacks for 1 full action) and they count for separate feat trees, which might have some effect on your character options.

[Antilles]

Every other 'multiple-attack' feat chains have restrictions in place so that you cannot use several at the same time, whereas Two-Hit Combo do not. 4 attacks for -4 (and no chance to become flat-footed) is a good deal better than the second-tier 4 attacks for -5 (and a good chance to become flat-footed), so I'd say this is a loophole in the rules, which I would not allow were I running a game.

[Nazralte]

Hrm. Yes, I see what you mean. The only way I can see that being corrected is if the Two Hit Combo feat had a line that stated when both your hands are empty or something to that effect.

[pawsplay]

You can already use Two Hit Combo with Two Weapon Fighting to avoid the larger penalties, making two unarmed attacks and two armed ones, and you can also use a double weapon and combine Darting Weapon with Two Weapon Fighting.

[Antilles]

The first combo you sort of can, but you'd have to do the weapon attacks, drop a weapon, and then do the unarmed attacks, so unless you've got Quick Draw, it's not a combo you can repeat every turn. The second combo... appears valid. Though I wouldn't allow it were I running a game.

[Sletchman]

The first combo you sort of can, but you'd have to do the weapon attacks, drop a weapon, and then do the unarmed attacks, so unless you've got Quick Draw, it's not a combo you can repeat every turn. The second combo... appears valid. Though I wouldn't allow it were I running a game.

I can't see any reason you'd have to drop the weapon.  I just went through the entire book and read every bit of text with the word "unarmed" and it doesn't say it has to be a punch.  So you could use two swords and then two kicks, or knee's or elbows, or whatever.  Of course if you wouldn't allow it [or any other feat combo] thats your perogative, but I can't see any rule that invalidates the combo.

The real reason to accept the -5 rather then a -4 is that you can make 4 unarmed/melee attacks, which you otherwise can't.  So you can focus your feats on one type of weapon, rather then two [especially when I never seem to have enough feats].  It also means that abilities that gear of number of feats of a certain type will have more uses per combat, or higher dc's, for the focused character.

[Nazralte]

Hrm.. Still not sure on this. Heh

I will probably let it work simply because thats how the rules are now, but I really am kinda curious if its as design to do unarmed attacks while holding weapons or if it was one of those "you should assume unarmed attacks mean holding no weapons" kinda thing.

[Crafty_Pat]

Alex and I give this combo our stamp of approval. In fact, you could theoretically do the same with Two Weapon Fighting and Darting Weapon, activating TWF and DW at start of the round, using your first half action for 2 attacks with different weapons via TWF, using a free action to drop a weapon, and dedicating your 2nd half action to 2 attacks with same weapon via DW.