Size Matters

[Agent 333]

As for turtles, I suspect their Athletics is probably not super high.

I don't know, they are pretty good swimmers...

That's because they have aquatic II and superior swimmer III.

[Goodlun]

Great now I am waiting for some one to post up both a turtle and a rabbit using the NPC builder

[Bill Whitmore]

Great now I am waiting for some one to post up both a turtle and a rabbit using the NPC builder

Remembering of course that the rabbit has to be a bitch to grapple despite its size and the turtle relatively easy.

[Deral]

Great now I am waiting for some one to post up both a turtle and a rabbit using the NPC builder

Remembering of course that the rabbit has to be a bitch to grapple despite its size and the turtle relatively easy.

What's the turtle going to grab? You know he's got banned action (grapple).

[meadicus]

Something I've been asking myself throughout this quite interesting debate, is "why has trip not got the same attention?" A trip action is mechanically much the same as grapple, opposed skill check with the same +4 per size.

I think the crucial factor here is, if a player has no ranks an acrobatics, and he comes accross somone who likes to trip, he'll find himself getting up from the ground a lot until he moves away. When a character with no athletics comes accross someone who likes to grapple, the moment he finds that out he's held in the grapple, and barring very fortunate rolling, or a friend interveneing, he's stuck there, nothing he can do.

I diskile the suggestion that every character 'should' have athletics. Things that every character needs are part of the class table. Not having athletics surely shouldn't be suicide when meeting a good grappler, but at the moment, unless I'm missing something, it is.

I don't have any suggestions about that this means, it just thoughts that have been running around my head.

[Agent 333]

Grapple prevents you from doing anything but trying to escape. Trip you get knocked down, you get up again, then stab them in the face.

[pawsplay]

Is there anything preventing grapplers from using sneak attack damage against their flat-footed opponent?

[Nepenthe]

Grapple prevents you from doing anything but trying to escape. Trip you get knocked down, you get up again, then stab them in the face.

Yeah, it's kind of like this.

[Goodlun]

I have never been a fan of "trip" as a separate action from that of a grapple.  For the most part to effectively trip someone you have to grapple them in some sort of manner even if that is with the hook end of a pole arm.  Although I surely understand that there are other ways of tripping someone other then grappling them its just not nearly as effective.

[pawsplay]

If you can sneak attack your opponent who is grappling you, because they are grappling you, then you may add that to the list of potential grappling issues, along with Acrobatics and Athletics being undocumented near-requirements as they are the only effective defense against a skilled tripper or wrestler.

[Azza]

If you can sneak attack your opponent who is grappling you, because they are grappling you, then you may add that to the list of potential grappling issues, along with Acrobatics and Athletics being undocumented near-requirements as they are the only effective defense against a skilled tripper or wrestler.

You cant sneak attack the person who is grappling you.  You may only make opposed grapple rolls that wouldnt benefit in any way from either combatant being flat footed. 

Your mates however cn sneak attack your opponent if he is holding you, so it is certainly a risk being the initiator of the grapple.

[Crafty_Alex]

If you can sneak attack your opponent who is grappling you, because they are grappling you, then you may add that to the list of potential grappling issues, along with Acrobatics and Athletics being undocumented near-requirements as they are the only effective defense against a skilled tripper or wrestler.

I don't see how *any* of these are issues. The fact that Trip and Grapple (and Bull Rush and Anticipate and Distract and Tire and Feint and Taunt and Threaten) are based on skills rather than BAB are a feature, not a bug. Just because D&D did it that way does not mean it's the only way it can be done. It's one of the features of our system to make skills useful in combat, and something that is simply NOT on the table to be changed. Just so we're clear.

Saying Acrobatics/Athletics are near requirements is like saying it's not fair that a character without Notice is vulnerable to Feints, or characters without Resolve can be Threatened easily, or charcacters with low BABs can get Disarmed by those with higher BABs (In fact, BAB differential checks are FAR more difficult for a character to make up for than skill-based ones, as BAB comes only from classes and you can dump entire levels of skill points into a skill until your maxed out easy enough). Each vulnerability is the result of a choice the player has or hasn't made for his character somewhere in that character's career - and choices are what our games are all about.

If you are seriously concerned about being Tripped or Grappled, Mastercraft offers you one of the easiest solutions in all of d20 to address your concern - the Origin skill. You can give yourself lifelong ability to defend yourself, without having to pay double for that skill that's not on your class skill list. Of course, there are other ways to avoid being grappled - through mobility, tactics, flight, knocking the other guy down, and don't forget magic. Despite running games with grapplers for the better part of 3 years (in Spycraft 2.0 and Fantasy Craft), I never once had it run totally off the rails - yes, the guy who invested a maximum amount of skill points in Athletics and bought a few feats tended to win grapples, WHEN he got there before being turned to a pincushion by arrows, gang-tackled by mobs of minions, slapped with Slow or Web, or endlessly wailed upon by a slippery big bad. But that's what he was built to do.

So getting back on topic - figure the system is what it is going to be, and Size is the issue here. What, aside from burning it all down, would you do? 

[pawsplay]

I don't see how *any* of these are issues. The fact that Trip and Grapple (and Bull Rush and Anticipate and Distract and Tire and Feint and Taunt and Threaten) are based on skills rather than BAB are a feature, not a bug.

Let's say you make a lancer named Lance. At 10th level, Lance has a BAB of +10. Against a 1st level Scout, he has a BAB differential of +10. On the other hand, Lance's arch-nemesis, Mr. Burgle, has an acrobatics of 13 ranks. That's a difference of +13. I think it is inaccurate to say that this difference is easy to bridge, since it is a larger difference, and it is impossible to bridge without multiclassing or using an Origin skill. Unless your Lancer is notably acrobatic, he remains tremendously vulnerable. That seems surprising for a 10th level combat veteran. Even if you choose a low BAB class, such as Mage, the difference is only +5 at 10th level. Further, no one has to invest anything. As it stands now, each character has to invest ranks in a number of skills simply to counter the specific schtick of another character.

[jolt]

My problem is that FC makes you just a little too incompetent if you don't have the needed skill.  I don't need the anticipation skills of an NFL quarterback, thought that certainly helps, to try and get out of the way of some bruiser who outweighs me by 100 pounds trying to slam into me.  In a real fight you aren't constrained by things like MMA rules (you can't bite, claw, knee to the crotch, fist to the throat, elbow to the soft spot on the back of the head right above the neck, etc.).  A lot of grapples become very easy when you know your opponent isn't going to take his fingernails to your throat and start squeezing or jab his thumb in your eye.  Even in MMA I've seen phenomenal wrestlers fail abysmally at taking down weak wrestlers: shoot in meets knee - wrestler loses.  What I don't like it that, IMO, it's too easy to perform these alternate maneuvers.  

Size is a problem because too many different things are abstracted into it.  A fly is hard to catch because it's small, fast, can be difficult to follow with naked eye and can zig-zag around enough to make your head spin.  Now pretend that fly is all those things plus intelligent and tell me how easy it is to grapple it.  Until you seperate the various things that "size" actually represents, there's always going to be an issue.

jolt

[pawsplay]

Mr. Assassin, Agent of Violent Change, versus the Dealer of Death

Mr. Assassin is a 10th level Assassin with Str and Dex of 14 each. The Dealer of Death is a 10th level Explorer with Ambush Basics, Ambush Mastery, and Ambush Supremacy. The Dealer of Death, bored of strangling wild boars with his bare hands, decides to pop Mr. Assassin's head off. He makes a full round action and grapples Mr. Assassin. Mr. Assassin, fit fellow that he is, gets +2 on his Athletics check, but is tragically, untrained, and can roll no higher than a 15. Meanwhile, the Dealer of Death cannot roll less than a 30. He grabs Mr. Assassin, doesn't error, then over the next few rounds begins to squeeze, dealing an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage every round. Mr. Assassin flails helplessly, trying to get a 20 and crit while avoiding a 1-3 and erroring. Soon their struggle ends.

You might think Lance would fare better, but alas, even with maxed out Athletics of 13 ranks and a +4 Strength bonus, he only has +17. Unless he rolls at least 13, there is no possible way for him to win. Even on a fair roll, against the Dealer's cousin, Vinny, he has only a 50% chance of escaping Vinny's crushing, +4d6 sneak attack Scout wrestling  technique. Dealer's little syster, Monica, is an Explorer 2/Scout 8, which means she she is equally capable as Vinny, buy can automatically murder Mr. Assassin or any other untrained character as well as the Dealer himself does, doing Vinny's superior damage.