Size Matters

[pawsplay]

IME, grappling a moving rabbit is not easy at all. They used to run wild on campus when I was a freshman in college, and we used to chase them...

[Morgenstern]

Again, how long did it stay within your reach?

The first requirement of the grapple check is that you be able to get into the target's square with it. Easier in game terms with turn-based movment, but conistent with things that don't want to be grappled/have their neck wrung, run like hell when critters that can do so start reaching out towards them .

[Doublebond]

I think the distinction that needs to be made is not that smaller creatures are faster, but that just plain small creatures tend to be fast in general. As far as humans are concerned we know the bigger guy is going to have an advantage in grappling, but if both were to try and catch a fly, they would experience the same difficulties in catching it regardless. Not because the fly is smaller, notably, but because the fly is fast in addition to its size.

This doesn't really come into play yet because FC doesn't have extremely small heroic races (like typical Disney fairies and etc.), but if it were to feature races known for their dexterity perhaps such races could include a race quality that messes with the size modifiers in grapple checks? Some ideas I came up with on the spot are be things like halving the overall size bonus of your opponent, nullifying it, and even making it a negative bonus at times. Since I don't have the rules in front of me I can't say whether these ideas are balanced or not, but what do you guys think of the concept?

[pawsplay]

Again, how long did it stay within your reach?

Long enough to make a grapple attempt, and miss. I repeated the experiment enough times to be able to say that rabbits are hard to grab. During one chase, I almost stepped on one once, which resulted in an ungraceful fall.

[Goodlun]

Again, how long did it stay within your reach?

The first requirement of the grapple check is that you be able to get into the target's square with it. Easier in game terms with turn-based movment, but conistent with things that don't want to be grappled/have their neck wrung, run like hell when critters that can do so start reaching out towards them .

Bingo, I use to raise rabbits and we had a rabbit pin that was about 5ft by 10ft, inside that pin it was really easy to grapple a rabbit they had no where to run away from but still could easily maneuver.  So apparently the best defense from being grappled is to stay out of grappling range.  Sounds like a good tactic to me.  How ever turtling up(IE Total Defense action) against someone who wants to grapple you doesn't make much sense to me.  Now I could see a decent argument that perhaps the 1st round of a grapple a much smaller character being able to use there
acrobatics skill vs athletics

[Goodlun]

Again, how long did it stay within your reach?

Long enough to make a grapple attempt, and miss. I repeated the experiment enough times to be able to say that rabbits are hard to grab. During one chase, I almost stepped on one once, which resulted in an ungraceful fall.

Prehaps you just have a really low athletics skill check vs that of the rabbits?

[Goodlun]

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of an acrobatics skill swap as a trick to escape or prevent a grapple.  I would need to play test this for sure.

[gaghiel42]

Coming from a football/wrestling standpoint on this whole thing, there are a few things that I wanted to toss out there too.  Some of the ideas floating around in this thread are dead on, and others maybe a little out of reach, but we'll get it sorted out in the long run.  Anyways...

In my football days, once you had hold of someone, it was pretty much all over but the shouting.  But, it was that getting hold of them that was the issue.  I was always a fan back in the day of the touch attack because it didn't matter what armor or shield you had... If I got hold of you, any bit of you I'd be able to drag you down and take you out.  Thats how it is in Football and Wrestling.  And if you watch the discovery channel, just watch a show on Crocodiles.  Nuff said.   

However, there are some room for defense with that as well.  Slick clothing, slime, unusual limberness and all things like that are excellent for escaping someones clutches.  I'm sure there are a few items/upgrades you could sneak into FC that could make grappling easier/harder based on the items themselves.  Good ol gear bonuses.

Also, I dunno about you guys, but if you've ever had to put a non-declawed cat (or some rabbits even) into a carrier, you'd know that even though you got hold of those suckers, they'll still take you out.  I've never been a fan of having to make opposed checks just to be able to attack the person grappling you.  I've seen people pinned headbutt, bite, break noses, twist fingers, claw... you name it.  Just cause someone is pinned does not mean they are out of options.  (this makes me think of maybe Morale is a factor... after getting clawed a few times, I'd kinda wanna let go of them)

But the number one winner in all grappling things I have discovered is mass.  Doesnt matter how able you are, how wiry you are.  If something bigger than you, with a lower center of mass gets hold of you, you are gonna stop.  A Dwarf would destroy people in football if it could keep up.  They'd make awesome linemen.  You get under someone, and there is nothing they can do...  Physics!  Science!  All that good stuff!

Anyways, keep going, I wanna see where this all ends up!

[pawsplay]

Prehaps you just have a really low athletics skill check vs that of the rabbits?

Low enough to cancel out my +8 for size? I doubt it.  And I got closer than any other person I know. Also, I can grapple humans well enough.

How ever turtling up(IE Total Defense action) against someone who wants to grapple you doesn't make much sense to me.

It's not turtling up, it's getting evasive. It's pretty hard to grapple someone whose only goal is not to be grappled. Every time they reach, you pull bag. If they grab something, you shift your balance. Put someone in a 10 foot cage with a fighter, and they can probably last quite a while if they just focus on avoiding being hit or grappled. You can't win on defense, but with some skill and luck, you can make your opponent very tired by the time they finish beating you down. It is incredibly difficult to grapple someone who just skips backwards every time you try to grab them and keeps circling.

[Goodlun]

Prehaps you just have a really low athletics skill check vs that of the rabbits?

Low enough to cancel out my +8 for size? I doubt it.  And I got closer than any other person I know. Also, I can grapple humans well enough.

How ever turtling up(IE Total Defense action) against someone who wants to grapple you doesn't make much sense to me.

It's not turtling up, it's getting evasive. It's pretty hard to grapple someone whose only goal is not to be grappled. Every time they reach, you pull bag. If they grab something, you shift your balance. Put someone in a 10 foot cage with a fighter, and they can probably last quite a while if they just focus on avoiding being hit or grappled. You can't win on defense, but with some skill and luck, you can make your opponent very tired by the time they finish beating you down. It is incredibly difficult to grapple someone who just skips backwards every time you try to grab them and keeps circling.

I don't know rabbits are pretty damn athletic they live or die by there athleticism.  Although  I would be more inclined to call it acrobatics by fantasy craft definitions.  Yes it can be very hard to grapple someone that knows how to grapple in the case of fantasy craft that means skills in athletics.  However someone that knows very little about grappling typically tend to be very easy to grapple and normally don't even see a penetrative step or clinch coming.  Your examples to me sound much more likely the effects of a successful athletics check vs grappling then total defense.

[Agent 333]

It is incredibly difficult to grapple someone who just skips backwards every time you try to grab them and keeps circling.

Indeed, and the FC rules already account for this. Starting a grapple is a full action, while moving is only a half action.

Round 1: Grappler moves up, does something else (probably try and trip, if it were me). Defender whacks grappler, moves back.
Round 2+: Repeat.

Assuming the defender has enough room to move to any square more than 5ft. from the attacker, the attacker will never land a grapple (assuming nothing granting extra action to either side).

[pawsplay]

Good point, but the evader should still be harder to grab than another person who is going to attempt to grapple back.

[Bill Whitmore]

Rabbits may be a pain in the ass to grapple, but if we make things harder to grapple because they are small, you run into problems on the other end of the spectrum.  Should we make box turtles hard to grapple?  I mean, they are even smaller than rabbits, so why not?

I think Agent 333's description is right on.  If you manage to force something into a corner and you move up to it, when it tried to bolt around you both move actions are going to be stopped as he enters a square adjacent to you, unless of course it makes its acrobatics check to tumble past you.  Acrobatics can be used to make it harder to be grappled if only because you also become nearly impossible to corner.

Good point, but the evader should still be harder to grab than another person who is going to attempt to grapple back.

I am not sure what this means.  The evader is harder to grab, especially since you may only ever get one shot at it.  The guy who is standing there trying to grapple you back, or even one just trying to beat you down, is also going to be easier to grab since you can try multiple times.

[pawsplay]

Allowing a dodge bonus would make sense. As for turtles, I suspect their Athletics is probably not super high.

[Bill Whitmore]

As for turtles, I suspect their Athletics is probably not super high.

I don't know, they are pretty good swimmers...