Size Matters

[Agent 333]

Are you suggesting, then, that the Larger character simply gets +4 no matter the number of categories different?

[Crafty_Alex]

It's a start. A bit more on where the Defense floor starts to get a bit ragged:

Let's say the Defense floor to the check was the only fix. Now, we've ended up making Grappling intensely defender-favored, or, if you're an Explorer, intensely attacker favored. The core of Grappling is an opposed Athletics check; the addition of a requirement that the attacker roll must *also* exceed Defense means there is a weird situation, where the defender can lose the opposed check and still not be grappled (i.e. when the attacker fails to exceed his Defense). So now we have opposed checks where half the time, the check result doesn't actually matter; opposed checks where both players lose is pretty damn weird/counterintuitive IMO. Defenders get the option to totally ignore Athletics as a skill if you're not going to max it out or if playing Defense heavy builds (honestly, why waste the skill points if Grappling is both difficult and severely discouraged and thus rarer?). Attackers have a choice - max out Athletics in order to make grappling worth their time/effort to get in there, get close, and grapple (where, BTW, they are generally *less* dangerous/damaging unless they've *also* got the Wrestling feat tree), or be substantially larger than their intended victim (maybe 2 size categories as a minimum). Using Grappling would become the tool only of the specialized character, rather than a viable tactical option for a character with some focus on Athletics and a his knowledge of his foe. I don't know about you guys, but when I fought with my brother as a kid (all the time), they ended up in grapples 75% of the time and I'm not what I would describe as a trained or committed or Athletic combatant

Reducing Size's impact on the equation with the Defense floor makes Grappling *only* the realm of the specialist...and that's just not a Mastercraft mindset. Tactics, not character builds, should help guide decisions at the table - otherwise, you're just punishing people who do not min-max or know the system very deeply. That is a serious turnoff to the game - bad options IMO shouldn't be present at all. Consider yourselves all commited, subject matter experts...the vast majority of players do not have the same commitment or ability to twink that you guys do, and I mean that in a complimentary way. Preemptively neutering the system won't prevent people from min-maxing in another way - my first rule of everything is that having a rule is the fastest way to encourage people to break it.

Now, the last consideration in the Grappling issue would be the Explorer, who would shatter the notion of Defense floors into a million tiny pieces thanks to Tomb Raider. When his minimum result is 21 at all times, and Defense in FC being lower than That Other Game because AC is not tied to defense or springing from armor, one level invested in that class will become the trump for about 90% of combatants. When you *also* consider the fact that most NPCs have a lower Defense than PCs due to the progressions used within the NPC stat tables, and it's just too valuable to ignore. By making Grappling harder for the average dude, you disproportionatley increase the value of Tomb Raider, making in "the one true solution" for any character who intends to Grapple and thus encouraging stale, predictable character builds. That is what exactly what everything in Spycraft, Spycraft 2.0 and Mastercraft - from Origins to free multiclassing - has been trying to eject from OGL games from Day 1.

My point is, there's no magic bullet, and making this calculation more complicated by adding Defense (or really, any further rolling) will not in my initial assessment guaranteed to be at least as unsatisfying, if not more so for most players. Instead, I prefer to apply Occam's Razor whenever possible - identify the core problem (in this case, Size's contribution to certain actions) and make the change with the simplest but most profound impact within reason.  IMEX, this is the most sound process to make changes in terms of business, design, and player impact.

[Number Three]

So what you're saying is, it is about size.

Touche, Alex.  [nods] Touche.

* Number Three goes and hides in shame from previous post.

[pawsplay]

Pathfinder handles this by basing grappling on BAB + Str + size bonus, but the size bonus is relatively small. Further, the defense is 10 + BAB + Str + size bonus + Dex. The advantage is still huge in favor of size, but in the extreme range, Dex mitigates the effect.

In That Other Game, Escape Artist can be used to oppose a grapple check.

You could alter FC's system by capping the bonus at +4, but in that case, a grizzly would not be all that adept at grabbing a pech. You might only apply the size bonus once the defender is already grappled or if the defender is sprawled, in which case there ought to be (might be already, have to check the book) a good way for a large attacker to smack an opponent sprawled, then jump on them and grapple.

[Sletchman]

A bit of history for those who are new or just playing for the first time - we've been using this same system in Spycraft 2.0 for 5 years, and it's worked great. The only real new addition/change to the system in Fantasy Craft has been the range of Size in characters. That, right there, is why we're looking at that factor closely.

Even spycraft had its Test Subject's, and Corn Fed's and nothing went really squirrelly there [speaking from way too much experiance - two of my players love those two origins a little too much].  It just seems hugeness is where people get the problems.

An idea, stolen from DnD's Complete Warrior:

Canny Wrestler
You are well versed in taking down bigger opponents.
Benefit:  You gain a +2 to grappling checks for every size larger then you that your target is.

Simple, also you could throw a trick in there, because that feat doesn't seem powerful enough [due to its suitational nature].

[Goodlun]

I have said it before and I will say it again I really LIKE the way Crafty already handles grappling as is out the door.  Once again this is from a perspective of someone who has competitively grappled at 150-160lbs depending on the sport.   The only thing I could think of may be a few traits that makes you hard to grapple such as being oily or the dex replacement for grappling checks. Actually I personally find nimbleness far more effective in grappling then pure str.  I really like the fact that the BAB is divorced from grappling cause grappling and striking are fundamentally different.

[Morgenstern]

While there is precedent for 'two DC checks' I'll agree that we have no opposed itterations of it currently.

Total Defense not helping prevent incomming grapples sort of bugs me, but lets look at what the action really does - it's not a +4 bonus to defense... its a +4 dodge bonus to defense. Anticipate is also granting a dodge bonus, and seems like a logical preventitive measure for Mr. No-I'm-not-comfortable-being-touched-like-that.

Moving away from the idea of a defense floor, but still considering the possibility that initiating a grapple may be a bit too easy, it might work to simply add your dodge bonuses to your athletics check when you're the person being glomped on. This could be handled as base rule change, or it cold be easily scripted as a trick...

No Touchie! (Resist grapple trick): Add your dodge bonuses to your Athletics check.

[pawsplay]

My casual inspection reveals few sources of dodge bonuses, so it probably does not warrant a trick. Even Wrestling Basics offers an unnamed bonus. Also, as a rule change it would excuses the fly from taking a trick for his Total Defense action.

[Azza]

Could you then just make the initial roll simply athletics vs athletics with the defender allowed to add to their roll any dodge bonuses they currently have.  Ignore size initially.

Once the grapple has been initiated opposed rolls use the size modifier and are as written in the current rules?

This makes me wonder.  If defense isnt normally included in grappling does that mean that there isnt any bonus for grappling a flat footed/stunned/sprawled/paralyzed opponent?(Maybe stuneed and paralysed dodnt actualy get to roll as they arent allowed an action?).  There are other conditions that are similar that make me wonder as well.  Off topic but following onto my previous question.  No bonus to disarm, trip or bull rush either?

[Khaalis]

Now that we’ve seen some of the deeper issues of the Defense floor (I had forgotten about the Explorer), I think we’re going down the correct path here.

Step 1 – address the issue of active defense:
I think allowing Dodge bonuses (thus total defense) as well as the Mix N’ Match concept to allow the defender to choose to apply the better of their Strength or Dexterity modifiers is a good idea.

Step 2 – address the issue of size difference:
I also like the idea of making Size only apply after a hold is achieved but it seems clunky and possibly counter intuitive to me. Since this issue really only seems to come into play for Extreme size differences, and considering the push to not have to alter a rule too much and that we already added quite a chunk in step 1, how about simply reducing the bonus to +2 per category. In this way you still allow for Size mattering in a grapple, but temper the drastic variance of the extreme cases?

The total change in text would be adding one sentence and the bonus in the next sentence.

“He steps into the opponent’s square and they make an opposed Athletics check. The defender gains any Dodge bonuses to his roll and may use the better of his Strength or Dexterity modifier for this check. The bigger character gains a +2 bonus per Size category of difference.”


Also, IMHO as to the question of no bonus for situations where the defender can’t defend themselves, I would simply call it an automatic success for the attacker as the defender cannot make an opposed check to resist the maneuver. If you are flat-footed or stunned, you are an incredibly easy target.

[pawsplay]

Using a different attribute modifier for Athletics so often seems fiddly to me. What about allowing Dex and dodge bonuses to stack on top of Athletics for the defender?

[Black_Irish]

Personally I feel that Tomb Raider already breaks Grapple too easily. After all, a 1st Level Explorer still has a roughly fifty/fifty chance of automatically eluding the grasp of (or pinning) the average Threat Level 20 Giant Brigand. Yes, a Signature Skill rating in Athletics for the Giant can fix that, but we are still talking about Level 1 vs. Level 20.

As far as Size affecting Grapple is concerned, I feel that the rules are generally fine. I say this because it is really easy to grapple an ant and an ant is often times smaller than a standard house-fly. The trick with flies is that they can, well, fly and they are rather agile; their advantage is not a matter of size. So an argument can be made for Dodge bonuses (and possibly Dexterity/Reflex).

One possible solution, although a bit fiddly, would be to have a two-step Grapple check where you initialize the Grapple with a standard opposed Athletics check. Failure means that you are Flat-footed and the target skips away. Success means that you *then* factor in the target's Dodge (or more) on top of their Athletics roll. If you still beat the DC then you have the target Held. If you fail to meet the new DC then *both* combatants are Flat-footed (you don't have the target tied-up, but you have effectively distracted him/thrown him off-balance). Just a thought.

[Daedalus]

Personally I feel that Tomb Raider already breaks Grapple too easily. After all, a 1st Level Explorer still has a roughly fifty/fifty chance of automatically eluding the grasp of (or pinning) the average Threat Level 20 Giant Brigand. Yes, a Signature Skill rating in Athletics for the Giant can fix that, but we are still talking about Level 1 vs. Level 20.

Hey, welcome to the boards Black_Irish.  Don't worry about this particular case too much, because there's a few things that need to be addressed.

Using the Rogue's Gallery Brigand and leaving it unaltered in every way besides the Giant template, the character has a +11 to Grapple.  I can tell you from personal experience, however, that the Rogue's Gallery defaults are best when molded to fit better into the situation for which they were meant in your particular game.  Using 3 XP to add Signature skill (Athletics) is entirely reasonable if the group encounters Brigands in the mountains ("How did you get up here?") or if the GM anticipates that Tomb Raider would make a combat too easy.  Adding Strength is another great way to make success rates on Grapple higher as well as add damage to those 50/50 successes within the Grapple.

Sending standard groups of enemies at my party has worked so far at preventing the Explorer's Tomb Raider from being too useful, but there was one cool fight where she grabbed two animated weapons and clanged them against each other until they broke.  Meanwhile, on the other side of the room, the rest of the party was trying to keep the Mage alive, (since two had flanked him and they each got two attacks per round) but that's not the Explorer's job.  Incapacitating two of those bad boys was a great use of a class ability, though she didn't really feel like she'd done much until the other group members reassured her.

Also Tomb Raider doesn't activate on an error, particularly the natural 1 in this case, which is unlikely but possible.

[Black_Irish]

Foolish me for thinking I could simply modify my post before anybody else responds...

Yes, I agree that any GM who expects to have Grappling as an effective tactic in an encounter with an Explorer (or certain Sage builds) in the party had better think out far enough to build Athletics in as a Signature Skill-- and at a rather high grade-- to any NPCs. But if you don't think that one through you have the potential for problems. And heaven forbid that the Explorer be a Giant himself...

[Goodlun]

I still have to say being bigger will still help you get into a grapple,  The bigger you are the more area you have to make contact with the other creature, grappling can be initiated with out any hand contact its just a matter of someone or something pretty much occupying the same space.  Its part of the reason "dodging" a grappler is so very hard its not like a punch or a kick, its much more like a touch attack with any part of the body against any part of the body of a defender.  The most effective defense against grappling is counter grappling(IE the sprawl).  While I can conceive that the dodge bonus may be appropriate(other then book keeping reasons I would actually go with like 1/2 the dodge bonus) defense tactics that u use in order to not get hit by a sword/spear or other thing is still so fundamentally different then the tactics you use to stop a grapple.  Lets say the example of a bunny rabbit, for striking your trying to hit a small nimble target, with the striking surface of something that will do damage to an area on the rabbit where damage will inflict an injury, with grappling all one has to do is pretty much dive on to it bigger you are the easier it is to dive on to.  Meaning that if anything on you hits it your hands, chest, legs, heck maybe even your head you have initiated a grapple.