Size Matters

[Morgenstern]

Also, having to beat two numbers, the opposed roll, and defense, means size bonus to defense kicks in, which should account for how hard it is to catch the fly or chicken initially... or at least how hard we think it should be.

I realized it might be useful to bring in the mosquito for this dscussion also. They are about the same size as flies, but easy to swat/grab/kill. The mosquito tells us that size is not the reason flies are challenging targets.

Mosquitos are also nice because they do attack things rather a few size categories larger than themselves , and as a result, willfully stay within the reach of their foes. If you become aware of one at all... pow! Most humans have more than enough point control to slap one. Again, size is not a big advantage for them when you make your attack check .

[Crafty_Alex]

To be clear, there are no rulings in this thread. Morg's offer of tricks is a good addition for those seeking to "fix" grappling with houserules, but there've been no decisions by Crafty on what to do here.

Pat and I are aware of the issues and we are keeping watch. A number of solutions here are simply not what we will do (for instance, requiring an attack roll is straight out - that puts us almost exactly in the same place grappling has utterly failed in 3.x for years). But we're certainly considering alternatives should we decide to employ them. As Morg is proving, the logic door here swings both ways, and I'm enjoying watching the discussion

[Morgenstern]

I'm pretty happy with the rules as written (big surprise comming from an author, right? ). But, adding Defense as a 'floor' for the grab check is simple and may appeal to some folks' sensibilities. It factors in a lot of fiddly stuff without any new calculations (all those fiddly bits already being summed up by the final defense score).

I think the Quite a Handful trick shows some promise entirely apart from any tweak to the 'grab' check. Stand-alone tricks key off a resource all characters have, providing even the Mage who is tired of getting man(ogre?)handled by the local tribe of slobbering man-eaters a way to level the playing field a bit. Being 'squirmy' should be a thing apart from BAB .

The tripping trick is an offensive option, but here the one-trick-per-check structure of the rules really pays off *nod to Alex's wisdom on that set up*. You can do truely heroic giant toppling, but you can't also pile on the hurt with some of the ugly trip stunts at the same time.

[Mikko Leho]

Put in a larger context there are a whole stack of skill-on-skill actions in the combat chapter specifically to prevent combat from devolving into "BAB is my most important/only offensive value," and "defense my only defensive value." In fact there are so may different ways to strike at a character that no character can reasonably be expected to guard against them all. There is no perfect tank - players need to cover for each other and GMs always have a case full of Kryptonite at hand for every character.

Yes, I have no quarrel with your logic and the other skills in the combat chapter work fine. However I strongly feel that all martial art efficiency should come from the same source. No matter if your characters tries to head-butt, roundhouse kick and take-down an opponent, it should always use the same ground work. This is not specific for Fantasy Craft. When I read different RPGs and find for example that punching is a skill but wrestling is covered using base strength attribute, I want to grab the game designer and scream. I am special that way and cannot be persuaded any other way at least when we are derailing the thread  

[Morgenstern]

If its of any consolation, after 10+ years of aikido practice, I'm pretty fond of grapling as a means of settling a dispute . Like Alex, I've no interest in making grapping an BAB-based attack check, but perhaps we can discuss the ramifications of such a house-rule elsewhere at some point.

[pawsplay]

Once nice aspect of setting a floor of Defense is that it allows Total Defense to benefit someone who does not wish to be grabbed.

On the matter of flies, I have mastered the skill of knocking them dead out of the air with my hand, and I can do it fairly reliably with a pen or pencil. They aren't all that hard to hit, but they aren't precisely easy, either. I am going to suggest that grabbing one or swatting one is probably equal difficulty.

[Morgenstern]

Once nice aspect of setting a floor of Defense is that it allows Total Defense to benefit someone who does not wish to be grabbed.

I like the cut of your jib, sir. That's been floating around in my head all afternoon, since I left off posting earlier to go buy Assassin's Creed II .

[Morganti]

On the subject of flies and mosquitos. I am inclined to believe that a mosquitos attack leaves them flat footed. Of course, they still get their size bonus to defense, though I could see a house rule about omitting it in this case.
Also, I like the idea of a total defense action making you harder to mess with, either by grappling or whacking with a stick

[Sletchman]

Yes, I have no quarrel with your logic and the other skills in the combat chapter work fine. However I strongly feel that all martial art efficiency should come from the same source. No matter if your characters tries to head-butt, roundhouse kick and take-down an opponent, it should always use the same ground work.

Just some food for thought - I have done alot of striking arts [Boxing and Muay Thai mostly] and have only really started to get into grappling work, and I know for a fact, that in a stand up fight, I can knock some of the BJJ guys out with absolutely minimal effort, but let a fight go to the ground, and I'm getting arm-barred, or triangled, or just plain choked out [I remember my first take down attemps, absolutely laughable].  Flip side, a buddy of mine has done BJJ, Akido, and Judo for near on 20 years, yet his punches and kicks are a little bit pitiful, and totally not for lack of strength.

Striking arts are just so different in application to grappling work that the small correlation is more from general fitness and experiance actually being in a fight [even just a friendly one].

Of course I understand your point, just something to think about, watch some MMA bouts between a striker and a grappler [especially easy to see on the early episodes of the current season of The Ultimate Fighter - Kimbo came from a pure strike background, and got taken out but a top class grappler, and couldn't do anything about it, and Kimbo is a damn good fighter].

[TheAuldGrump]

On the subject of flies and mosquitos. I am inclined to believe that a mosquitos attack leaves them flat footed. Of course, they still get their size bonus to defense, though I could see a house rule about omitting it in this case.
Also, I like the idea of a total defense action making you harder to mess with, either by grappling or whacking with a stick

Flies and mosquitoes have very different reactions to possible attack - the fly is much better at evasion, and as for blackflies.... they definitely do more damage too. (Ow!)

The Auld Grump

[Mikko Leho]

Just some food for thought - I have done alot of striking arts [Boxing and Muay Thai mostly] and have only really started to get into grappling work, and I know for a fact, that in a stand up fight, I can knock some of the BJJ guys out with absolutely minimal effort, but let a fight go to the ground, and I'm getting arm-barred, or triangled, or just plain choked out [I remember my first take down attemps, absolutely laughable].  Flip side, a buddy of mine has done BJJ, Akido, and Judo for near on 20 years, yet his punches and kicks are a little bit pitiful, and totally not for lack of strength.

I am training in Muay Thai and BJJ with a little bit of background in Krav Maga and Defendo. I agree with you that striking and grappling are two different worlds, but I feel that the latter still correlates more with BAB than with Athletics. But like I said this has nothing to do with Size anymore.

[Number Three]

But like I said this has nothing to do with Size anymore.

You are absolutely correct.  In fact, this has nothing to do with reality.  It has everything to do with game balance, and making sure a combat specialist can't hide behind one stat to the exclusion of all else.  As one of the authors is fond of saying, "in game terms, reality is broken."

[Daedalus]

In my experience in my game right now, it seems that everyone wants to grab Acrobatics as an Origin skill (two of my players did, one is a Scout) to avoid trip-fest against humanoid NPC's.  Athletics is a bit more common, but it is something they are not reluctant to grab ranks in. 

As for Grappling, Smaller characters and monsters should take advantage of places they can fit and their larger opponents can't in the RAW.  It's really a must to squeeze into the spaces so the Giant can't "enter the opponent's square".  In a fight with animated weapons, one of the weapons decided to hop in a chair.  The Explorer was grappling two of them across the room and making quick work of them, and the chair it was in MIGHT have bought it an extra round should the Explorer decide to turn her Tomb Raider wrath upon it.

Making the Grapple check exceed the Defense for the initial grapple doesn't seem too unreasonable to me, particularly when the smaller opponent is not cornered (as the aforementioned chicken) and has plenty of room to prance.  There's also the flat-footed, sprawled and flanked positions, which would logically make the Grapple easier, so it at least has that going for it.  Shields adding a bonus to not being Grappled would chalk up one point for Sword & Board combatants.  Shields, when properly armed, seem like they would provide that kind of bonus, in my eyes, as the opponent is shoved back on an unsuccessful Grapple, and works his way under the shield on a successful Grapple.

In addition, making smaller opponents harder to Grapple may make some characters reluctant to try to Grapple them in the first place.  In the RAW, there's very little stopping the character with a 1+ size category advantage from trying, except spatial constraints.  In the extremes, it seems somewhat ridiculous to me that a Truly Massive Giant could unerringly grapple a Sprite in open air (+20 net bonus) controlling for skill.  It is by merit of size alone that the Grapple is so easy, which is somewhat problematic, especially when the target would be so hard for them to find in the first place.  Adding a potentially small (but also potentially large) bonus to the smaller opponent's DC is not necessarily problematic.

That actually brings a hypothetical situation to mind.  If 2+ smaller characters were in the same square, (two goblins, say) would the stepping into the opponent's square portion of Grapple be possible?

[Khaalis]

From everything I've read, I think that adding Defense to the mix is a great idea to get a more balanced grapple. I would also suggest that the Opposed roll be Athletics vs. the opponent's better of Athletics or Acrobatics. Again this comes down to the strength/skill vs. squirmy/skill issue.

That actually brings a hypothetical situation to mind.  If 2+ smaller characters were in the same square, (two goblins, say) would the stepping into the opponent's square portion of Grapple be possible?

JMHO, but I'd personally rule that while yes, the larger creature could start a grapple with one of them, they are considered flat-footed as soon as they do (not after the hold is attained).This too lends some of the tactics that smaller creatures use - swarming.

Using some of the examples above, it would be much harder for someone to grapple 2 chickens simultaneously in the same coupe, but at the same time a lot easier for the 2 chickens to gang up on the attacker pecking away...

It lends some more realistic options. A giant facing off against a small group of goblins is going to actually be a lot more cautious. Swatting and crushing 1 goblin in a grapple is easy. Fighting off a swarming pack of them? In the immortal words of Fezzik: "you use different moves when you're fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to be worried about one."

[Crafty_Alex]

In the extremes, it seems somewhat ridiculous to me that a Truly Massive Giant could unerringly grapple a Sprite in open air (+20 net bonus) controlling for skill.  It is by merit of size alone that the Grapple is so easy, which is somewhat problematic, especially when the target would be so hard for them to find in the first place.  Adding a potentially small (but also potentially large) bonus to the smaller opponent's DC is not necessarily problematic.

This particular issue, IMO, is the single biggest concern about grappling - the issue of per-Size category. While a Huge giant vs. a Diminiutive sprite is not common enough to redesign the entire system, Size should probably not be as large a factor.

Using Defense as a floor is interesting but not really convincing me it will solve the problem. Part of using Defense while leaving Size as a bonus in the game just leads down weird paths - Attacker adds Size, then defender adds his Size which is basically just nullifying the attacker's Size in the calculation - and we basically end up with another clusterf*cked grappling system.

A bit of history for those who are new or just playing for the first time - we've been using this same system in Spycraft 2.0 for 5 years, and it's worked great. The only real new addition/change to the system in Fantasy Craft has been the range of Size in characters. That, right there, is why we're looking at that factor closely.