Size Matters

[Morgenstern]

Ok, I for one do not get all the uproar over grapling greatly favoring the bigger character. I get it people don't have a lot of day-to-day experience with life-and-death-struggles with things of different sizes than themselves, but lets look at some more approachable scenarios.

If you had a rooster gripped firmly in both hands (pinned), it would be a pretty big surprise that you couldn't consistently wring its neck (2 size categories difference).

If you had a good sized dog trapped under you and an arm around its neck, you'd expect to be able to choke it out far more often than not (1 size category difference).

If you were in a narrow stall with a horse, odds are pretty damn good it can slam you against the walls and hold you there at will (1 size category difference).

If you were engaged in a tug-of-war match with an elephant, you'd know you'd made a serious vocational error (2 size categories difference).

The rules as written reflect reality pretty well. However, this being a heroic game, people would like for their heroes (and certain highly capable supporting cast) to put up a fight out of all proportion with reality. I can support that . My solution next post.

[Morgenstern]

The following two tricks are for characters who specialize in tackling chalenges a bit above their weight range. That are purchased with weapon proficiencies normally.

Quite a Handful (resist grapple trick): Opponents 1 size category larger than you gain no bonus from size to their grapple check. Opponents 2 or more size categories larger than you gain only a +2 bonus per size category (instead of the ussual +4).

...The Harder They Fall (trip trick): Opponents 1 size category larger than you gain no bonus from size to resist this trip.  Opponents 2 or more size categories larger than you gain only a +2 bonus per size category (instead of the ussual +4).

These tricks turn the normal bonus range from +4/+8/+12/+16 etc. into +0/+4/+6/+8 etc. Because they are tricks they also prevent you from adding any other specialized shenanigans to the action - you are having to concentrate totally on offseting the advantage size is granting your opponent.

[MDL]

I think your examples show just where you're missing the problem some people are having.

All of your examples start with the smaller entity already grabbed.

From what I've gathered, the problem people have isn't that a larger entity has advantages grappling a smaller entity they already have their hands on... it's that the larger entity gets this same advantage for getting their hands on the smaller entity to start things off.

For instance, a human versus a fly.  Once you've 'successfully grappled' a fly (aka, have it in your hand), yeah, the human is going to win any further grapple checks unless they choose to release the fly.

However, grabbing the fly to begin with, aka the initial grapple check to start things, is not a trivial or simple task.  The humans extra size really doesn't provide much benefit, whereas the flys small size and high agility and mobility are huge boons to it.

Smaller size(well, being smaller than Medium size, technically) does provide some benefit that aligns with this 'small and agile is hard to get a hold of or hit' in the form of a Defense bonus.  But Defense is completely bypassed on the initial Grapple attempt with rules as written.  I suspect requiring a to hit roll for grapple initiation (possibly make this an option the defender can invoke if they choose... aka, a poor grappler will invoke the defense, a good grappler may just say 'screw it, I'll just turn the tables on you and win the grapple') would fix the issue people have more directly...

[Agent 333]

I propose the following fix:
For the first (and only the first) roll of a grapple, invert the size bonuses. That way smaller characters have a much easier time STARTING a grapple, but can't do much once they do.

[Morgenstern]

That's a fair observation. Lets explore it a bit.

I for one have never had much trouble scooping up a fly once it stays within my reach for more than a couple seconds. Same with chickens. And sheep - lots o' experience wrangling sheep. All of those critters do their best work avoiding their fate by using their speed to stay away from me, often longer than I care to chase them. In real life my reach is more like 2.5 ft than 5, so there's a smaller bubble of space that I control than the 5 ft. radius the game gives a person, but enter it, and that little critter is Done.

I like the idea of agile critters being harder to take hold of during the intital contact, but I don't devalue the fact that my hand controls a volume of space vastly bigger than the fly's whole body. I ain't trying to grab it with chopsticks here . My size and comparitive reach DO provide incredible advantages over the fly. Likewise the sweep of my arms controls a space much bigger than the chicken's body - I just need to choose a corner of the pen where it can't run farther than my reach and the outcome becomes pretty certain. If these animals choose to melee with me - deliberately stayed in reach instead of running or their lives, the 'grabbed and pinned' part follows with a pretty high order of certainty. Chickens don't stick around to peck, they run like hell. Its only adventurers that insist on trying to stab a dragon that outmasses them 100-fold or more .

Looking at the initial roll, maybe allowing Dodge or Dex bonuses would model the initial grab better, but I still don't see the baseline as all that far off from non-heroic reality. Hmm. It does bring to mind the possibility of a reflex save (which favors the fly quite a bit, and the chiken or sheep less so). The other fairly accessible number is to require the Grapple check to exceed the target's Defense, much as spellcasting checks have to exceed both the check DC and the target's Spell Defense. Skill checks follow a different curve than attack checks, so the defense would have to be very high to matter, but maybe that's the safety net people need to feel that small and quick is being given a nod.

[aegis]

The other fairly accessible number is to require the Grapple check to exceed the target's Defense

That is an excellent idea. I recently had the problem of a player whose fighting character got grabbed too easily by my bulette because he hadn't any rank in Athletism. Poor choice, but in my opinion, it shouldn't be as punitive as it turned out to be.

So if at least he would have the chance to initially avoid the grapple thanks to his Defense (which was quite high), then good! If he get caught anyway, well, he should have put some ranks in Athletism after all ...

[meadicus]

The other fairly accessible number is to require the Grapple check to exceed the target's Defense

This is an elegant and excelent solution. Not only to the issue of size but another which has played on my mind. If my character has a shield, a sword to parry, and nimble feet, all these help stop someone hitting him with a weapon, even if that weapon is a closed fist, but not when it's an open hand coming in to grab? Defense should play a part of it and I like Morgs simple approach.

[Mister Andersen]

So would this mean that the initial Grapple is no longer an opposed Athletics check but rather a substitution of Athletics for an attack check?

[meadicus]

So would this mean that the initial Grapple is no longer an opposed Athletics check but rather a substitution of Athletics for an attack check?

Both is how I read it.

Grappler makes their initial athletic check, if it beats the targets defense, then the target needs to make an opposed athletics check to resist the grapple. If it doesn't beat the targets defense, then the grapple attempt was a failure.

[Mikko Leho]

Why use Athletics at all? If you are using Defense for resisting Grapple then why not roll for normal attack using the exceptions listed under Grapple? Skill vs Defense looks messy to me as a one time special rule.

[Morgenstern]

So would this mean that the initial Grapple is no longer an opposed Athletics check but rather a substitution of Athletics for an attack check?

No, opposed check as it is currently, but with an additional requirement of exceeding the target's defense to succeed. Same principle as spellcasting checks having 2 numbers you have to beat.

[Morgenstern]

Why use Athletics at all? If you are using Defense for resisting Grapple then why not roll for normal attack using the exceptions listed under Grapple? Skill vs Defense looks messy to me as a one time special rule.

Because the point of grappling was to give characters a means of damaging foes that is not based on your BAB. Skill vs. Skill is a very common arangement in the combat chapter, this is just letting Defense represent an additional 'out'. Since skill rolls can handily beat Defense in on-level comparisons, it's really only going to allow very defense-oriented builds the opportunity to slip away.

[Morganti]

Also, having to beat two numbers, the opposed roll, and defense, means size bonus to defense kicks in, which should account for how hard it is to catch the fly or chicken initially... or at least how hard we think it should be.

[Mikko Leho]

Because the point of grappling was to give characters a means of damaging foes that is not based on your BAB.

I understand now what you were getting at and it is fine if that is what one looks for. However I have trouble imagining such a drastic difference between a straight knee kick (BAB) and a knee kick delivered in a thai clinch position (Grappling). Also BAB should be in my opinion the character's standard measure for hurting others. Still I can see your logic behind the ruling and it is easily house ruled 

[Morgenstern]

Put in a larger context there are a whole stack of skill-on-skill actions in the combat chapter specifically to prevent combat from devolving into "BAB is my most important/only offensive value," and "defense my only defensive value." In fact there are so may different ways to strike at a character that no character can reasonably be expected to guard against them all. There is no perfect tank - players need to cover for each other and GMs always have a case full of Kryptonite at hand for every character.

(That and the equitability of use between the skills factored in combat aplications. Anything that makes a skill less useful is probably not a good call.)