The rapier

[aegis]

Aegis, I corrected your grammar in the quote. Please don't take this as an insult, but as a genuine desire to help you for the future.

I truly appreciate. Don't hesitate to PM me if - or rather when - anyone sees something that makes your eyes bleed.

Also, I think that's probably a pretty good house rule.

Thanks.

[TheAuldGrump]

Hey Pawsplay, welcome to the FC forums

Yeah it is not 100% representative of a real late mediaeval/renaissance rapier. But nothing else is either. Crafty took a decision to make it reasonably realistic, makes sense, but is a neat different weapon to other blades, I reckon. It is not like 3E where is has little do differentiate it from other blades. I like it, it makes it an interesting weapon, but it certainly is one of those preference things... house rule away, my friend.

The bits of FC weps that I do not like are the bits they didn't change from 3E, like falchions being 2H, WTF?

Some falchions are among the earliest known uses of case hardening.

The Auld Grump

[Oleyo]

I don't get to bothered by the names myself.  I like that the crafty guys put every mechanically different option in there, for variety of play.  If a weapon name feels funny or you have a weapon you are extremely familiar with or knowledgeable about, just pick the weapon with the qualities you like and call it whatever the heck you want   That's what I do.  Sometimes I call it Frankie.

[pawsplay]

As the main goals seem to be to knock out, rather than kill opponents, and to pierce armor, subdual, AP 2 just makes a lot more sense. I just cannot settle my mind on the idea that tough, armored opponents like dragons and knights are vulnerable to rapiers and Farstride Folk aren't, when I am dead certain the reverse should be true. It raises less issues to me if the Fencing feats allow you to stress damage, as that is going to come up less often, and I suppose there ought to be some kind of mechanics for carving letters onto people. The idea of carving a "Z" into the Tarasque is enough of a rare case I am not inclined to worry too much about it. Perhaps such a fencer simply slips the rapier painfully between scales, without drawing much blood or destroying much flesh.

Still, the idea that a rapier is a pain-causing, less-lethal weapon is not particularly realistic. Unless you flense your opponent, the opposite is likely more true; potentially deadly organ damage or blood loss that may not be felt for seconds or minutes.

[Nova]

If you think of the FC rapier as a 'foil' (which a lot of people mistakenly call rapier thanks to old old tv shows like 'zoro') and the razor sword as a proper rapier, its not as bad. A foil can kill, but mostly it'll just poke painful shallow holes into (or through) parts of the target, making it lethal, but rarely instantly so (bleed damage). It probably just slips off the massive hair of those little pech buggers when you're trying for the papercuts.

Whereas a true rapier would range from the slightly too decorative to a real weapon (add in AP2 and a little weight), and fits the 'razor' rather well. A light, nowhere near as 'bendy' double-edged blade that can ruin someone's day.

As for a Z on a tarrasque, it ain't gonna happen. They're immune to subdual and stress if you made them kaiju as you should.

[@stroVal]

If you think of the FC rapier as a 'foil' (which a lot of people mistakenly call rapier thanks to old old tv shows like 'zoro') and the razor sword as a proper rapier, its not as bad. A foil can kill, but mostly it'll just poke painful shallow holes into (or through) parts of the target, making it lethal, but rarely instantly so (bleed damage). It probably just slips off the massive hair of those little pech buggers when you're trying for the papercuts.

Whereas a true rapier would range from the slightly too decorative to a real weapon (add in AP2 and a little weight), and fits the 'razor' rather well. A light, nowhere near as 'bendy' double-edged blade that can ruin someone's day.

As for a Z on a tarrasque, it ain't gonna happen. They're immune to subdual and stress if you made them kaiju as you should.

Or-speaking of swashbuckling- the character could walk up to it and say:
''Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. "

But yeah on a more serious note I am contemplating using this version of the rapier for duels and having a lethal one for adventuring(thicker blade,better constructed etc)

[Krensky]

Why?

Against mooks, stress is better then lethal. Against Special Characters, Fencing Mastery lets you do lethal at need. If you don't have Fencing Mastery, use a different sword. Rapier and the Fencing chain go hand in hand.

Really, this seems a heck of a lot of work to correct a non-issue.

[pawsplay]

Whereas I see the stress damage for the rapier as a lot of work to create a non-productive result. I don't see anything particularly desirable about the results of letting rapiers and razors do stress damage inherently. Rapiers are deadly weapons and should do some kind of significant damage, subdual or lethal, and armor should be effective against them.

I'm just not down with the idea that I'm going to stick 2 1/2 lbs. of sharpened steel into someone and they're going to be defeated because, "Ow, ow!" it hurts. The bleeding quality makes them credible weapons, and I think they would play all right, in part because of that. But basically I think giving such a weapon stress damage was a cute idea that in examination probably does not work that well.

[Krensky]

Frankly, I think your two hung up on names, so you miss the effects.

If you hit a standard NPC with a rapier, they have a good shot of being rendered hors de combat regardless of the use having the Fencing Mastery feat or not. Against a Special NPC a chharacter with skill (the Fencing Mastery feat) can kill in a hit or two (or whatever, depends on the to many variables) since he can do lethal damage at will. Rapiers are credible weapons because they do damage. Standard NPCs (which make up most of what your players should be facing) don't care about damage type most of the time. Against a standard NPC 1d8 stress and 1d8 lethal and 1d8 subdual are the same other then cosmetic effects.

And a razor? Seriously? A razor is a stress weapon. It scares people because it hurts a lot and bleeds a lot, but in a stand up fight it's not useful. Coup de grace type situations, sure, but any blade can slit a suprised guard or sleeping man's throat.

[pawsplay]

Actually, razor wounds are often dangerously painless. I doubt all the thousands of Filipino and Malay street types killed over the years by razor-wielding Escrima and Kali practitioners would agree with your assessment.

I don't care strongly about the names. I care about the effects. Stress damage is the wrong effect for the rapier in the hands of your average wielder. It interacts illogically with armor, Stress Resistance ("Good think I visited that hooker or that would have really hurt!"), damage conversion, and every other purpose I can think of apart from taking out standard characters. The only thing it does right is the thing that doesn't care if the damage is lethal, subdual, or stress.

[@stroVal]

Actually, razor wounds are often dangerously painless. I doubt all the thousands of Filipino and Malay street types killed over the years by razor-wielding Escrima and Kali practitioners would agree with your assessment.

I don't care strongly about the names. I care about the effects. Stress damage is the wrong effect for the rapier in the hands of your average wielder. It interacts illogically with armor, Stress Resistance ("Good think I visited that hooker or that would have really hurt!"), damage conversion, and every other purpose I can think of apart from taking out standard characters. The only thing it does right is the thing that doesn't care if the damage is lethal, subdual, or stress.

haha well done,thank you.Nuff said

[Sletchman]

How is this actually an issue?  The descriptions show that the Rapier in the stat block is clearly a Foil, and that the Razor Sword is the actual "Rapier" of the game.  The Razor Sword does everything you want a rapier to do, so why would you want a cheaper duplicate in the stat blocks?

[pawsplay]

I already stated how this is an issue. The rapier should be a rapier, and stress damage does not really work that well even for the foil. If pokey-pokey damage is stress, than someone needs to back and add damage defiance (stress) to a whole lot of pain-resistant monsters. If that is not an issue for you, then it is not an issue for you.

[Crafty_Alex]

I already stated how this is an issue. The rapier should be a rapier, and stress damage does not really work that well even for the foil. If pokey-pokey damage is stress, than someone needs to back and add damage defiance (stress) to a whole lot of pain-resistant monsters. If that is not an issue for you, then it is not an issue for you.

Pawsplay - the rapier has been renamed the foil in the errata.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Except that won't solve his issue: The weapons is supposedly causing Stress damage by making small cuts or something, but the way Stress damage seems to be defined in most other places its mental damage.  I believe pawsplay is asking that it either be explained how individuals who are resistant to mental damage are somehow resistant to this physical damage but not visa-versa, or that the physical damage it causes be brought in line with other physical damage.