The rapier

[pawsplay]

Ok, help me make sure I understand. The rapier does stress damage. Stress damage can cause someone to become shaken, then unconscious, but does not kill. Stess damage cannot deliver a critical injury. Therefore, it is impossible to kill someone with a rapier, except by letting them bleed to death.

I find this a little strange. Even the least weaponized, "sporty" rapier has a nasty point that could, conceivably, kill. It also makes it hard to enact some scenes out of Errol Flynn movies. More generally, I would like to point out that while dainty dueling weapons did acquire the name rapier, they were descended from real Renaissance-era weapons that were designed to kill.

Apart from ignoring DR, what does a rapier get from doing stress damage over nonlethal? Wouldn't nonlethal, AP 4 produce very similar results?

Comments? Thoughts? Thrown popcorn?

[Sletchman]

Critical Injury =/= Critical hit.

Critical Injuries are the injuries on page 207-208 for the rules governing them.  They are broken bones, head traumas and the like.  Not simply being killed.

If a standard NPC fails their last damage save to stress, they fall unconcious, which makes them supremely killable [coup de grace].

Fencing Mastery lets you deal lethal damage instead of stress, at your leisure.

Finally, you can have it either magical, or Orc crafting to deal damage other then stress.

Rapiers in Fantasycraft seem to represent more of a death from a thousand cuts / system shock type thing, rather then organ impaling.

Edit: The above is just thoughts, as they entered my head, consider that stress is also less resisted then subdual, and ignores DR, rather then needing the AP in the first place - its equally effective against a merchant with silks, and a Dwarf with heavy fullplate - thats not a small benefit.

[Agent 333]

For more lethal fencing without having to be a master at it, I recommend the Scholar's Sword.

[pawsplay]

That's interesting, I never noticed before that you can coup de grace an opponent with your thumb or a feather. But otherwise, yeah, the most you can do is stun someone for 1d6 rounds (critical hit) or knock them unconscious (multiple shaken conditions).

Perhaps the rapier is simply intended for very romantic campaigns. For +50% cost, you could take a scholar's sword and add bleed and AP 2.

[Wolverine]

Don't forget that once the opponent is unconscious you can also deliver a Coup de Grace

...or just fence him to the edge of a cliff then shove him off.

[Sletchman]

But otherwise, yeah, the most you can do is stun someone for 1d6 rounds (critical hit) or knock them unconscious (multiple shaken conditions).

Thats for Special Characters [players and special enemies] for the guys you usually fight, the rules are on page 207 - a single failed damage save and bam! Unconcious.  Unless its a tough enemy, you will unconcious them quick, and then you can finish them, or tie them up for questioning later.

In the game I'm playing in at the moment, the rapier wielder is a killing machine, and its not "romantic" in the slightest. We're only 5th level to boot, so its not like its a huge investment / return ratio.

[pawsplay]

Amusingly, you can convert a club's damage to lethal, but not a three pound piece of sharpened steel. Just out of curiosity, how many people reading this thread have ever hefted a rapier?

[Sletchman]

Amusingly, you can convert a club's damage to lethal, but not a three pound piece of sharpened steel. Just out of curiosity, how many people reading this thread have ever hefted a rapier?

A club is a 10lb lump.  Put extra heft into a swing, at the cost of accuracy and you can deal lethal damage, thats what the rule represents.

I've done extensive training with a rapier and main gauche while working with a full speed re-enactment group, as well as modern fencing.  While I could certainly kill someone with one easily, I doubt a novice could, without getting lucky.  Fencing Mastery represents the level of training needed to kill someone with ease.

In the end, if you don't like it and you're the GC, change it.  If you're the player and your GC doesn't want to change it, then use a Scholars Sword, or Razor Sword, or even a Sabre.

[Crafty_Pat]

In addition to all the other methods, you can simply convert the damage to lethal by accepting a -4 penalty to the attack check (page 209).

Also note that subdual damage can kill - eventually (fourth bullet on page 211).

[pawsplay]

In addition to all the other methods, you can simply convert the damage to lethal by accepting a -4 penalty to the attack check (page 209).

Also note that subdual damage can kill - eventually (fourth bullet on page 211).

Rapiers do not deal subdual damage. Stress damage cannot be converted, and cannot kill.

[pawsplay]

I've done extensive training with a rapier and main gauche while working with a full speed re-enactment group, as well as modern fencing.  While I could certainly kill someone with one easily, I doubt a novice could, without getting lucky.  Fencing Mastery represents the level of training needed to kill someone with ease.

How much harder is it that killing someone with a dagger or any sword of sword? At the end of the day, a rapier is simply a variety of sword. A very thin estoc type (no sharpened edges) might prove baffling to the novice, but surely a determined blow to the heart/lung area would do something useful even in inexpert hands.

I wonder if the stress damage thing is maybe too cute an idea. Maybe subdual would have been better?

I freely confess that I have not tried the thing out in practice, but at least in concept, the rapier seems like it would play out strangely.

[Crafty_Pat]

In addition to all the other methods, you can simply convert the damage to lethal by accepting a -4 penalty to the attack check (page 209).

Also note that subdual damage can kill - eventually (fourth bullet on page 211).

Rapiers do not deal subdual damage. Stress damage cannot be converted, and cannot kill.

Ugh. Must stop answering board posts before a shower or coffee. 

[drnuncheon]

I find this a little strange. Even the least weaponized, "sporty" rapier has a nasty point that could, conceivably, kill. It also makes it hard to enact some scenes out of Errol Flynn movies. More generally, I would like to point out that while dainty dueling weapons did acquire the name rapier, they were descended from real Renaissance-era weapons that were designed to kill.

"And again, the thrust being made through the hand, arm, or leg, or in many places of the body and face, are not deadly, neither are they maims, or loss of limbs or life, neither is he much hindered for the time in his fight, as long as the blood is hot: for example:

I have known a gentleman hurt in rapier fight, in nine or ten places through the body, arms, and legs, and yet has continued in his fight, & afterward has slain the other, and come home and has been cured of all his wounds without maim, & is yet living." - George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

If you check out histories of dueling you find out that many lethal rapier duels didn't result in death until long after the actual fight was over - sometimes days.

Lastly, note that the rapier has the bleed quality - bleeding does subdual damage if you lie there and do nothing…if you are bleeding and taking actions (like defending yourself) you are suffering 1d4 lethal damage per turn.

[pawsplay]

Arrows are also quite capable of piercing the limbs without killing, as is the stiletto.

The bleed thing is a good point, though; that much damage will quickly finish any standard character.

[Dhampire]

Lastly, note that the rapier has the bleed quality - bleeding does subdual damage if you lie there and do nothing…if you are bleeding and taking actions (like defending yourself) you are suffering 1d4 lethal damage per turn.

Also, if, after his opponent was bleeding, a fencer was to use the trick, Salt the Wound, it would end the fight that much sooner as well.