[Notebook] Astral Magic

[knight.errant]

I updated my original post, it now includes all five colors.

[Morgenstern]

Any word on the 7th Sea adaptation? It had really compact magic styles that lend themselves to this sort of limited system.

[spinningdice]

I'm kind of low on spare time at the moment & I'm still torn between this and paths.

Pyeryem (shapeshifting) gives you speaking to animals & changing into animals (with later options for partial shifts). Finding/creating Spells for it seems somewhat counter intuitive. On the other hand using a path for it blocks all but a specialist class from usung the base ability - which doen't feel correct for 7th sea...

As an Astral path you'd probably need to create a batch of spells.
You'd need 'Speak with Animal' (unless it already existed) & then a set of spells like "Bear Pyrerem", "Wolf Pyrerem" & so on. I'm not sure how to deal with things like partial transformations - I think you'd need to either add the optiom to the "x Pyrerem" spell or add additional spells "Bear Aspect" etc.

As a Path you could give level 1 ability to speak while further iterations add new forms with x xp values with eventual ability to take on limited abilities from your forms.

Of course even once the better solution is worked, I'd rather have a consistant system across all the Thean Sorcery aspects. So need to look at Porte (limited teleportation), Glamour (taking on aspects of legends), Sorte (combination fortune telling & fate manipulation). Then it has to be decided if you're bringing in the other sorcery/shamanism paths (which I personally tend to ignore as I felt they started to dilute the concept a bit.

[Daedalus]

I don't know if Morgenstern considered this before, but this is actually a pretty neat feat series for Keepers, particularly concepts like "An astrologer guiding the tribe’s chieftain with clever plans and keen observations" and "An honored riddle-master preserving the traditions of a lost
world".  They gain access to the later feats much quicker than other classes due to their high maximum skill ranks ala "Trade Secrets".  If Astral feats were added to the Keeper's bonus feat list, then they would definitely lead the pack in terms of Astral Magic capabilities.

Do Astral Magic feats add to the DC's of granted spells?  This is similar to the idea of the Path series of feats, because Constellations won't be necessarily of equal value if one grants a bunch of save-based spells and another grants enhancement spells.  Also, excessive synergy with Charisma-based skills should be avoided, so Blend, Bluff, Disguise and Impress-based constellations should likely grant less spells that have save DC's than their non-Charisma-based counterparts.

While I'm here I might as well play with the formula:

The Jaguar: Known as the silent hunter, the Jaguar is a symbol of power and strength.  It also plays an important role in maintaining balance in nature.  Without a strong beast to cull the weak, they would surely destroy themselves through over-using their resources.  It is also the duty of the Jaguar to ward their home against the forces of darkness, particularly horrors and the undead.

Constellation Skill: Survival

Spell List

• Level 1: Concealing Countryside I, Deathwatch
• Level 2: Consecrate, Hold Animal
• Level 3: Keen Edge, Heroism I
• Level 4: Brawn II, Phantasmal Killer
• Level 5: Wild Side II, Light's Grace

I gave it one "hunting" and one "protection" spell at each level to accommodate for the jaguar's dual role as slayer and protector.

[Sageasa5]

Anyone who has been having Path of Magic trouble in their game has the answer.
The original Astral magic stuff at the beginning of this thread, slightly modified, is an amazing replacement for that path.
I want to thank Morg for preemptively giving me a few hours of my life back    so that I can busily devote them to designing "Constellations" around the deities of my game to allow for spellcasting priests who don't overshadow Mages in a lot of ways. 

Path of Magic always rubbed me wrong. Its simple, but it just doesn't work all the time, or works too well when it shouldn't. This solves a lot.

I think I am just going to follow Morg around on the boards and see what coolness pops up. Seems to be in style right now...

[Morgenstern]

You can show your gratitude by posting your constellation creaitions to the thread . I'm enjoying seeing what people do with the tools.

I think we're getting up to where another transfer-to-wiki might be in order. The editor screen makes my brain hurt so I tend to be lax about archiving.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Since I've been working on how to grant limited spellcasting similar to Alignment Paths without designing a new class I think I can mix this in to my ongoing quest.

[aegis]

You can show your gratitude by posting your constellation creaitions to the thread . I'm enjoying seeing what people do with the tools.

True ! I totally forgot to post my attempt on dragonmarks here. Note that some of these spells are from Spellbound: The Seer.

Dragonmark of making
House: Cannith
Species: Humans
Skill: Crafting
• Level 1: Tinker I, Repair I
• Level 2: Toughen construct, Repair II
• Level 3: Construct assembly I, Tinker III
• Level 4: Rusting grasp, Tinker IV
• Level 5: Construct assembly II, Spell bind I

Dragonmark of finding
House: Tharashk
Species: Humans, orcs, half-orcs
Skill: Search
• Level 1: Concealing countryside I, Pass without trace
• Level 2: Knock, Locate object
• Level 3: Water breathing, Zone of truth
• Level 4: Concealing countryside II, Locate person
• Level 5: Move earth, Find the path (considered as 5th-level spell here)

Dragonmark of detection
House: Medani
Species: Half-elves
Skill: Notice
• Level 1: Detect magic, Detect secret doors
• Level 2: Detect emotions, Status
• Level 3: See invisibility, Arcane sight I
• Level 4: Detect traps, Detect lies
• Level 5: Sense weakness, True seeing

Dragonmark of handling
House: Vadalis
Species: Humans
Skill: Survival
• Level 1: Nature’s ally I, Command I
• Level 2: Calm emotions, Hold animal
• Level 3: Nature’s ally II, Verdure
• Level 4: Elemental shield, Geas
• Level 5: Nature’s ally III, Command II

Dragonmark of scribing
House: Sivis
Species: Gnomes
Skill: Investigation
• Level 1: Whispers (considered as 1st-level spell here), Mage scribe I
• Level 2: Living library I, Whispering winds I
• Level 3: Speak with the dead, Tongues I
• Level 4: Mage scribe II, Whispering wind II
• Level 5: Living library II, Mindlink

Dragonmark of warding
House: Kundarak
Species: Dwarves
Skill: Resolve
• Level 1: Alarm, True strike I
• Level 2: Obscure item, Arcane lock
• Level 3: Glyph of protection I, Wall of wind
• Level 4: True strike II, Wall of ice
• Level 5: Wall of counter magic, Wall of stone
 
Dragonmark of healing
House: Jorasco
Species: Halflings
Skill: Medicine
• Level 1: Deathwatch, Cure wounds I
• Level 2: Restoration I, Cure wounds II
• Level 3: Remove curse I, Cure wounds III
• Level 4: Restoration II, Cure wounds IV
• Level 5: Heal, Resurrection I

Dragonmark of hospitality
House: Ghallanda
Species: Halflings
Skill: Impress
• Level 1: Create water (considered as 1st-level spell here), Unseen servant
• Level 2: Consecrate, Silence
• Level 3: Tiny shelter, Neutralize poison
• Level 4: Flawless fib, Mantle of mundane
• Level 5: Charm person III, Heroe’s feast (considered as 5th-level spell here)

Dragonmark of shadow
House: Phiarlane and Thuranni
Species: Elves
Skill: Disguise
• Level 1: Disguise self, Scrye I
• Level 2: Mirror images, Darkness I
• Level 3: Darkness II, Scrye II
• Level 4: Illusory image IV, Prying eyes I
• Level 5: Illusory image V, Scrye III

Dragonmark of passage
House: Orienne
Species: Humans
Skill: Ride
• Level 1: Jump, Expeditious retreat (considered as 1st-level spell here)
• Level 2: Levitate, Water walk group
• Level 3: Haste, Fly I
• Level 4: Freedom of movement, Dimension door
• Level 5: Teleport I, Fly II

Dragonmark of sentinel
House: Deneith
Species: Humans
Skill: Sense motive
• Level 1: Shield, Entropic shield
• Level 2: Mage armor, Shield other
• Level 3: Heroism, Magic vestment II
• Level 4: Spell immunity I, Resilient sphere I
• Level 5: Light’s grace, Mark of justice

Dragonmark of storm
House: Lyrandar
Species: Half-elves
Skill: Acrobatics
• Level 1: Control weather I, Endure elements (considered as 1st-level spell here)
• Level 2: Gust of wind, Chill storm I
• Level 3: Call lightning I, Control weather II
• Level 4: Air walk, Chill storm II
• Level 5: Call lightning II, Control weather III

I know they're not all perfectly suited for each dragonmark but hey... Thoughts?

[Sletchman]

Neat.  Good work Aegis.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Something I just realized: How does this interact with "You succeed if the DC is lower than 20 + class level" abilities?

[Sletchman]

Something I just realized: How does this interact with "You succeed if the DC is lower than 20 + class level" abilities?

Lancers with the Dragonmark of Passage can reliably cast their spells?  I have no problem with it, its not like they are mages who have a heap of spells.  Of course getting a reliable 25 doesn't always get past spell defence.

[Mister Andersen]

The Mark of Passage -- being the only mark I've played and thus have any sort of attachment to -- doesn't sit right for me (Dimension Door should be in Astral Mastery), and in a way is exemplary of the problem of shoehorning the concept into this mechanic.

5 Ranks = minimum level 2 = effectively 3 before you pick up Basics.

10 ranks = minimum level 7 = effectively level 9 before you pick up Mastery.

15 ranks = Supremacy then comes in 3 levels later at 12, which makes the positoning of Mastery look skewed (from the stand point that you shouldn't need the Constellation chain).

Speaking of that chain, if you do take it on top of the Astral chain, that's your entire post-1st level bonus feat complement gone.

Improving the efficacy of Dragon Marks really needs to be the provence of a Master Class

[Morgenstern]

The Mark of Passage -- being the only mark I've played and thus have any sort of attachment to -- doesn't sit right for me (Dimension Door should be in Astral Mastery) and in a way is exemplary of the problem of shoehorning the concept into this mechanic.

Actually it just says Eberron is a little higher magic setting than the feat chains alone support. Perhaps add blink in the level 3 slots.

5 Ranks = minimum level 2 = effectively 3 before you pick up Basics.

Or take any Talent that gives the matching enlightened skill for that constellation (watch how that one ripples throught the chain...), or any Specialty that gives Prodigal Skill. I set it up so we could have a 'Guildsman' specialty that sets you up nicely for any mark by giving Prodigal Skill as it's bonus feat (not Astral Basics) and we can do either a generic 'Dragonmarked' talent (choose an enlightened skill as seen on the Dwarf) and/or specific Talents for each house that give you the necessary head start on the skills with tailored Enlightened skills.

And yes, Keepers are serious astral mages, even without being able to take the chain as bonus feats for the class.

Speaking of that chain, if you do take it on top of the Astral chain, that's your entire post-1st level bonus feat complement gone.

Which, outside of the introduction of Astral-magic supporting classes, is exactly the same situation experienced in the Eberon setting - it eats your level-based feats like a pig .

Improving the efficacy of Dragon Marks really needs to be the provence of a Master Class

I see setting up a generally advantageous Expert class (with the return of feat prerequisites, it again becomes possible to use early access as an incentive), and then Master classes for each house derived from those presented in the Dragonmarked sourcebook.

[Mister Andersen]

Or take any Talent that gives the matching enlightened skill for that constellation (watch how that one ripples throught the chain...), or any Specialty that gives Prodigal Skill.

Eh. Those both occured to me but strike me as rather suboptimal

I set it up so we could have a 'Guildsman' specialty that sets you up nicely for any mark by giving Prodigal Skill as it's bonus feat (not Astral Basics) and we can do either a generic 'Dragonmarked' talent (choose an enlightened skill as seen on the Dwarf) and/or specific Talents for each house that give you the necessary head start on the skills with tailored Enlightened skills.

That plan crashes and burns for two reasons. the first is that the Talent idea screws non-humans.

The second is that the Dragonmark chain are clearly species feats.

Which, outside of the introduction of Astral-magic supporting classes, is exactly the same situation experienced in the Eberon setting - it eats your level-based feats like a pig .

At most you lost 3 feats to Dragonmark progression but you could just get away with the Least Dragonmark and take levels in Dragonmark Heir which gave you the other 2 as bonus feats.

I see setting up a generally advantageous Expert class (with the return of feat prerequisites, it again becomes possible to use early access as an incentive), and then Master classes for each house derived from those presented in the Dragonmarked sourcebook.

If you go with the Astral Magic model, the 1st feat is the preq, the others can be strung out along the A+C slots but that still leaves a lot fo space to fill. Even more so if you go with just the three feats (though if you just go the 6-level route for them...).

You also have to figure the Siberys marked getting their own Master class, then figure how that works into things

[Morgenstern]

Or take any Talent that gives the matching enlightened skill for that constellation (watch how that one ripples throught the chain...), or any Specialty that gives Prodigal Skill.

Eh. Those both occured to me but strike me as rather suboptimal

*shrug* I liked the idea, which is why I set the prerequisites where I did. It seemed to me like Origin-as-gateway to optimal use was quite fitting for dragonmarks.

That plan crashes and burns for two reasons. the first is that the Talent idea screws non-humans.

Dwarves already work fine. Halflings (pech as they appear in that setting) I would give choice of Impress or Medicine as their enlightened skill (rather than resolve). Elves take slighlty more jugling, but again, the elves of Eberon are not the elves of Fantasycraft, so I'd probably be setting them up from scratch anyway.

The second is that the Dragonmark chain are clearly species feats.

An interesting take. Casues some illogic in conjunctoin with spliter race feats (no reason why the human, dwarf, pech or elf spliter races automatically get higher save DCs on their magic than the root species does IMO). That said, it doesn't look like it instantly crashes and would make sorcerer a way of moving things along.

At most you lost 3 feats to Dragonmark progression but you could just get away with the Least Dragonmark and take levels in Dragonmark Heir which gave you the other 2 as bonus feats.

I did just say outside of supporting classes . B/M/S work just like the main pregression in Eberon, and the side track works just like the additional feats in the Dragonmarked supliment.

If you go with the Astral Magic model, the 1st feat is the preq, the others can be strung out along the A+C slots but that still leaves a lot fo space to fill. Even more so if you go with just the three feats (though if you just go the 6-level route for them...).

I think Promotion or a similar social-status building class ability is a no-brainer. The best parts about the Dragonmark Scion class were the elements that played off the social implications of being highly ranked in a powerful merchantile organization, not the parts that made you a better spell flinger - the later being obvious.

You also have to figure the Siberys marked getting their own Master class, then figure how that works into things

*Chuckle* The class itself is easy enough (and yeah, favors master class). Might be better off just making it a feat chain - I think it'll boil down to that very quickly. The fun starts when dealing with all the dragonmarked feats that came latter and all bent over backward trying to integrate the sibery's mark