Biggest Grappling

[nyan]

Note: I'm not 100% sure this is correct, but it seems to be legal.

Jeb sighed. "Easy money - basically raises itself!" "Eats anything it finds -- never have to feed it!" "Grows like you'd never believe!" "Bring it to market in a year, and never need to delve another dungeon again!" While the shady merchant hadn't lied, there was so much he'd left out. The eating of all the livestock in the province. The playful trampling through the king's cherished rose gardens. The playful trampling through the king's beautiful castle. The angry king and not-so-playful lynch mob, come looking for whoever had caused the trouble.

But today was the last day. Today, Bessy was going to market, and the yearlong headache would come to an end.

The rumbling grew louder and louder. Zed cracked a wry grin as his tail cleared a sapling from behind him. Bessy had never been the quiet type, and like any animal knew that something was up. One scaled claw lifted a golden pendant to Jeb's toothy maw and he kissed it for luck, just as the trees parted and the Tarrasque charged into view.

Bessy foamed at the mouth as she charged the Drake, hitting him over and over with every point, sharp or dull, that could reach him. Jeb, cut here and there and again and again but still standing calm and silent and somehow not cut in twain, shook his finger in turn at the larger beast for some endless seconds.

Then Jeb's head flashed forward, opening wide then fastening tight over Bessy's thick throat. Though the thrashing would continue for another long minute, the fight was over -- soon, Bessy lay quiet, though trees filled the silence with cracking and popping as they shattered under her settling weight.

Jeb stood panting and bleeding for a moment before he recovered enough to say a prayer for the animal he'd raised from a tiny egg no larger than a cart. Then he cursed foully -- for he'd forgotten the issue of the cart. Where does one buy a Colossal cart on short notice?

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Bessy: TL 14 Tarrasque special character (effective TL 19 with Veteran V)
Jeb: 14th level Drake PC

Pre-Combat
Tarrasques don't really hide so well so Jeb shouldn't really be surprised at it coming. (Plus Jeb can fly.) Jeb casts Brawn IV for Strength.

Round 1

Bessy goes first (+31 Initiative versus +20) and charges, moving then making a full-round attack (Charge). Say that all possible attacks hit (+39 attack versus defense 10 + 10 (levels) - 4 (size) + 13 (Strength / Martial Arts) + 1 (Wrestling Basics) = 30 when not denied Dex-like bonuses) for bite/claw/claw/tail -- Jeb is too large to Trample or Swallow -- average damage of 36/16/16/16/18, with the Bite hitting three times, the first two critical hits (Critical Surge). Jeb takes 6 WP and 3 VP due to his natural attack DR 33. Bessy's roar fails to shake Jeb (+14 save versus DC 25, average save result plus one action die spent).

Jed shakes his finger at Bessy, reducing her Fort saves by 13 (Stand in Judgement I).

Round 2

Bessy repeats round 1, reducing Jeb to 21 WP, 120 VP, and 3 action dice.

Jed then successfully grapples Bessy (+35 Grapple versus 6 (comp I) + 4 (Grappler) + 4 (size difference) + 9 (Strength) = +23). Bessy becomes Held.

Round 3+

Bessy tried to break free, and fails. Bessy is Pinned.

Jed performs a Coup de Grace on Bessy (Wrestling Supremacy), doing 1d12 (G bite) + 13 (Strength) + 2 (No Prisoners!) = 21 damage (Divine damage ignores DR). Bessy ignores this the first seven times it happens (Tough VII). After that, probably fails her Fort save (+25 - 13 (Stand in Judgement I) = +12 versus 10 + 21 = 31), but doesn't die the first three times that happens (Cagey III).

Round 12+

GM is out of action dice, Bessy is out of Cagey and Tough, fails her Coup save and dies.

(I do realize the more likely result is the GM throws 4 AD to activate Jeb's first error then follows it up with a 4 AD volcanic eruption to separate the combatants and protect his beloved Tarrasque.  )

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Jeb L. Zard
Gargantuan Drake Sorceror
Priest 4 / Paladin 10

Attributes
Str 16 + 2 (Drake) + 3 (levels) + 4 (Path of Strength) + 2 (Paladin) = 27 (36 with Brawn IV)
Dex 12 - 2 (Drake) = 10
Con 10 + 1 (Wrestling Mastery) = 11
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14 + 1 (Comley) + 2 (Paladin) + 1 (Angelic Heritage) = 18

Stats
Fort +9 (+13 Dramatic)
Ref +4 (+8 Dramatic)
Will +10 (+14 Dramatic)
VP 9 * 14 = 126
WP 10 * 3 (size) = 30
DR 6 (armor) (Paladin 10 = + Strength bonus Dramatic = 14(19))
DR versus natural attacks 6 (armor) + 10 (greater DR essence) + 4 (Path of Strength) = 20
    (Paladin 10 = + Strength bonus Dramatic = 28(33))

Feats
Truly Massive (Sorceror)
Martial Arts (L1)
Bandage (L3)
Comley (Priest 4)
Grapple Basics (L6)
Angelic Heritage (Paladin)
Grapple Mastery (L9)
Grapple Supremacy (L12)

Paths
Strength 5 steps
other Path: 1 step

Skills
Athletics 17 (ranks) + 8(13) (Strength) + 5 (Path of Strength I) = +30(35)
   grapple versus Medium targets = +30(35) + 12 (size) = +42(47)
other skills: 68 ranks

Gear+ (1400 silver / 140 Rep)
Heroic Renown 2 (100 Rep; up to 3 prizes up to 20 Rep each)
Partial Platmail with Heavy Fittings; Greater ACP Negation, Spell Effect - Brawn IV 1/adventure (575 silver, 19 Rep)
Holy Symbol; Exotic Unarmed Damage - divine (5 Rep)
Dandy Earring; Greater Damage Resistance - natural attacks (15 Rep)

[Deral]

Seems legal (though you left out some natural attacks, should be bite/claw/claw/gore/gore/tail, likely with another bite from frenzy, then whatever critical surge gives), but you're going to get a lot of the same responses, I think:

That's a lot of ifs, ands, and buts, but if a player went through all the trouble of trying to build a character just to fight a tarrasque, makes sense that you'd win, but it's still assuming those magic items, paths, feats, and classes are available, that magic items can be purchased, as well as average rolls and that 12 consecutive grapple checks fail- the PC does have the advantage, but it's not like it's a 20 point advantage and the GM does have d10 action dice they didn't spend during the whole exchange except for some reason at the end (I suppose to avoid failing coup de grace saves?).

[Daedalus]

Yeah it looks pretty fair.  Those three feats are really good for grapplers, granted a large portion of his bonuses come from size and paths.  In my first session, Dock Workers attacked the group, and easily man-handled the Assassin character since he had no ranks in Athletics.  One thing that you might take into consideration is that Divine Damage might be linked to Alignment (in order to make sense), just so that Jeb doesn't have simply an easy way to circumvent DR and further penalize Bessie's Athletics check.  Of course he could be doing Sonic damage, but this only causes deafness on a failed damage save, as opposed to Baffled, which is actually relevant in a Grapple.

What's kind of weird about the Grapple rules is that a character that sees another, regardless of size difference, has a good chance of grappling.  If a Huge Giant sees a fairy, due to the size difference, (Huge vs. Tiny) the Giant gets a (T>S>M>L>H) +16 Grapple bonus and circumvents attacks rolls, nearly guaranteeing success before skill.  It sounds like a bizarre corner case, but Fairies need to take advantage of places where they cannot be seen (or where Giants can't fit) to avoid being grappled less than 15% of the time.

Oddly, there's also the issue that Size no longer comes with a corresponding bonus to attack for being smaller, so Pixies could hardly hit each other outside of a Grapple, and Huge sized creatures couldn't help but hit each other most of the time.  TBH, it's probably a fair house-rule to require hand-to-hand attacks to land for a Grapple to take place, to avoid strange situations like a Giant grappler rampaging through pixie towns, pinning and coup de grace'ing them with ease.

[nyan]

though you left out some natural attacks, should be bite/claw/claw/gore/gore/tail, likely with another bite from frenzy, then whatever critical surge gives)

Whoops, you're right. But I already threw in three Bites a round, and the Gores can't hit hard enough to break through the DR anyway.

That's a lot of ifs, ands, and buts, but if a player went through all the trouble of trying to build a character just to fight a tarrasque, makes sense that you'd win, but it's still assuming those magic items, paths, feats, and classes are available, that magic items can be purchased, as well as average rolls and that 12 consecutive grapple checks fail- the PC does have the advantage, but it's not like it's a 20 point advantage and the GM does have d10 action dice they didn't spend during the whole exchange except for some reason at the end (I suppose to avoid failing coup de grace saves?).

Indeed, though those aren't exactly esoteric selections. And the character isn't built just to fight a Tarrasque. I think a base DR of 20+ during Dramatic scenes is pretty good all around, plus all the other Paladin abilities, plus potentially very good social skills. And there's the matter of the missing PC party...

Grapple seems very nasty. I am so tempted to add a, "higher of ranks in Athletics or BAB," to Grapple resist checks (and perhaps Bull Rush and Trip). I do realize that would cause some devaluations. Relatively idle thought.

And Path of Strength is OP except for the not-so-minor part that, fairly unique among Paths it seems, the third rank is actually a drawback for most purposes.

[nyan]

What's kind of weird about the Grapple rules is that a character that sees another, regardless of size difference, has a good chance of grappling.  If a Huge Giant sees a fairy, due to the size difference, (Huge vs. Tiny) the Giant gets a (T>S>M>L>H) +16 Grapple bonus and circumvents attacks rolls, nearly guaranteeing success before skill.  It sounds like a bizarre corner case, but Fairies need to take advantage of places where they cannot be seen (or where Giants can't fit) to avoid being grappled less than 15% of the time.

Oddly, there's also the issue that Size no longer comes with a corresponding bonus to attack for being smaller, so Pixies could hardly hit each other outside of a Grapple, and Huge sized creatures couldn't help but hit each other most of the time.  TBH, it's probably a fair house-rule to require hand-to-hand attacks to land for a Grapple to take place, to avoid strange situations like a Giant grappler rampaging through pixie towns, pinning and coup de grace'ing them with ease.

True. Conceptually, it almost seems like a giant grappling a pixie should have the pixie make a reflex save against an area attack.  Certainly classical fantasy is rife with smaller opponents dancing around larger foes. I certainly didn't seem to be getting a +20 versus fruit flies last week... unless they're Athletics X, in which case I think it may be time to move.

[Deral]

though you left out some natural attacks, should be bite/claw/claw/gore/gore/tail, likely with another bite from frenzy, then whatever critical surge gives)

Whoops, you're right. But I already threw in three Bites a round, and the Gores can't hit hard enough to break through the DR anyway.

Still, it's worth noting because he has critical surge, the critical doesn't have to do damage for him to get another action and his Gore threatens on a 17.

That's a lot of ifs, ands, and buts, but if a player went through all the trouble of trying to build a character just to fight a tarrasque, makes sense that you'd win, but it's still assuming those magic items, paths, feats, and classes are available, that magic items can be purchased, as well as average rolls and that 12 consecutive grapple checks fail- the PC does have the advantage, but it's not like it's a 20 point advantage and the GM does have d10 action dice they didn't spend during the whole exchange except for some reason at the end (I suppose to avoid failing coup de grace saves?).

Indeed, though those aren't exactly esoteric selections. And the character isn't built just to fight a Tarrasque. I think a base DR of 20+ during Dramatic scenes is pretty good all around, plus all the other Paladin abilities, plus potentially very good social skills. And there's the matter of the missing PC party...

Grapple seems very nasty. I am so tempted to add a, "higher of ranks in Athletics or BAB," to Grapple resist checks (and perhaps Bull Rush and Trip). I do realize that would cause some devaluations. Relatively idle thought.

And Path of Strength is OP except for the not-so-minor part that, fairly unique among Paths it seems, the third rank is actually a drawback for most purposes.

As far as the character goes, yeah the DR is nice, though you'll be doing everything, ever, outside, and in truth it's impossible to make a character in FC who's only good at one thing, kind of a nice thing about the system is the inherent variety, but I'd still say it sacrifices a fair amount to focus on that one thing.

And yeah, grapple rules seem to be the toughest thing to make airtight for any system, I'm not sure I've ever seen them done flawlessly.