[Request] Gun information help.

[Sletchman]

I hope no one thinks less of me for this, but I don't actually know much about firearms.  So I've come up with a whole heap of stupid questions that I couldn't find answers too, and hopefully our resident gunbunnies can help me out, or at least point me to somewhere I can educate myself.

1a) How long does it take to reload a "swing open" revolver without using a speedloader? [Spycraft has it as 2 half actions, but I can't find any mention of that sorta thing online]

1b) For revolvers that don't have swing open cylinders [is there a technical term?] like the Colt Single Action Army, how long does it take to reload?

2a) What happens when you pull the trigger of a single action revolver [without the hammer cocked]?

2b) Do you have to cock the hammer before every shot is fired, or does it re-cock itself after firing?

2c) Can a revolver hammer be cocked one handed?

3a) How long does it take to reload a tubular rifle magazine [like the one found in early Winchesters]?

3b) Can you fire those kinds of rifles with less then a full load [ex. empty it, load 1 round, and fire that 1 round]?

4) When firing a lever action rifle, does the lever do everything that a bolt would do in a bolt action?

5a) The Henry Rifle is a lever action, breech loading, tubular magazine rifle [according to Wikipedia], does this mean that to load it you open the breech and insert the 16 rounds into it somehow?

5b) Does this make it take longer to load, round for round then a Winchester style tubular magazine [which look to have a loading hole at the end]?

Thats all I can think of for now, thanks for any help you guys can give.  Sorry if any of these were too stupid.  Other folks in the same boat as me should expand on this and hopefully we'll get a nice reference thread.  Questions with the same numbers refer to the same weapon in most cases.

[OverNinja]

Quite a list!

1a) 2 rounds is quite close to reality, if you have the new rounds in hand. It'll take longer if you have to reach for each round separately (like pocket, box or table).

1b) "Swing out cylinder" is correct term.
You first have to eject the spent cartridge and then replace it with a new one. I'd say 1 half action per chamber.

2a) Nothing. The trigger only releases the hammer.

2b) You must cock the hammer manually to fire again.

2c) Yes.

3a) I'd say 2 half actions. More if you have to search/reach for the ammunition.

3b) Yes.

4) In most cases yes. Spencer rifles require shooter to separately cock the hammer.

5a) You open the loading sleeve at front of the rifle to reload the rifle.

5b) No.

Aragathor feel free to correct me, as the older weapons not my forte.

[Aragathor]

1a)Do you need to manually drop the rounds out? Or is it a revolver which drops the rounds for you, like the Korth revolver which drops the rounds automatically? I'd say 1 half action to open and drop the rounds, 2 to fill the cylinder. Assuming of course rounds in hand.

1b) 3 rounds is good for a practiced user, longer for a rookie. Remember, you need to align the cylinder with the loading gate by hand.

2a) What the Ninja said.

2b)That depends on the action of the revolver. Single-action revolvers (most wild west guns, some Ruger produced around the '50s) need to be manually cocked, double-action ones don't need to be cocked at all (they are cocked by the trigger).

2c)Yes. The use of the thumb is advised.

3a) I don't know Overninja, we are talking about 15 cartridges in total. I'd say 3 half actions under good conditions (rounds near the rifle, trained user).
2 half actions for the spencer, with the cartridge box.

3b) What he said.

4) What Overninja said, but I would also add the Volcanic guns.

5a) Again, what ON said.

5b) A person using the Henry very often will under the perfect conditions be somewhat quicker than the average Winchester user, but by a small margin.

[MugMug]

I hope no one thinks less of me for this, but I don't actually know much about firearms.

No worries.

1a) How long does it take to reload a "swing open" revolver without using a speedloader?

With very casual practice (every 2-3 months, with that gun not being the focus of the range visit), using a S&W-style revolver (which has an extractor rod to remove spent rounds), I could maybe reload with a speedloader in about two half-actions if I was smooth about it (i.e. wasn't thinking about the time).

I haven't really thought about how long it would take me to reload without a speedloader, but I bet it'd take at least three solid rounds -- assuming the rounds were easily accessible (open box on a shooting bench; open cartridge pouch; etc).

That's just me, though. If you're Jerry Miculek you can fire twelve rounds from a six-shot revolver (yes, there's a reload in there) in one half-action.

Walter

[Gentry]

That link would be cooler if there was youtube video. Dagnabbit.

Oh wait, there is. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVxt2lebqM&feature=related

[OverNinja]

That's just me, though. If you're Jerry Miculek you can fire twelve rounds from a six-shot revolver (yes, there's a reload in there) in one half-action.

He can do it blindfolded in a bit over five seconds at ten yards.

Shooting blindfolded (at around 3.30 minutes)

[Sletchman]

1a)Do you need to manually drop the rounds out? Or is it a revolver which drops the rounds for you, like the Korth revolver which drops the rounds automatically? I'd say 1 half action to open and drop the rounds, 2 to fill the cylinder. Assuming of course rounds in hand.

Its more for like late 1800's weapons, do they drop the rounds out?  Also by "rounds in hand" do you include a wild west style ammo belt [with the bullets held in little loops]? Or did they only exist in fiction?

1b) 3 rounds is good for a practiced user, longer for a rookie. Remember, you need to align the cylinder with the loading gate by hand.

So 18 seconds, give or take?  Would it be outside the realm of feasibility for someone to do it in say 10 seconds?  With aligning the loading gate by hand?  I'm not talking regular folk, but highly specialised types.

3a) I don't know Overninja, we are talking about 15 cartridges in total. I'd say 3 half actions under good conditions (rounds near the rifle, trained user).
2 half actions for the spencer, with the cartridge box.

So you can load about 5 cartridges per half action?  Does this hold true for tube magazine lever action shotguns also?

Thank you both for the answers, its been extremely helpful.  Oh and that Jerry Miculek guy is amazing.  Thats the kinda guy I want playable at the end of a feat chain, and maybe a prestige class.  I'm working on the latter two at the moment.  This info will go a long way.

I hope no one thinks less of me for this, but I don't actually know much about firearms.

No worries.

You have no idea how silly I felt when I realised I don't know what happens when you pull the trigger on a single action.

[Aragathor]

Its more for like late 1800's weapons, do they drop the rounds out?  Also by "rounds in hand" do you include a wild west style ammo belt [with the bullets held in little loops]? Or did they only exist in fiction?

Ok, then most of your guns will be fitted with an extractor rod (you pull it down and it pushes the round from the cylinder). The only model with auto-extraction will be the S&W No. 3 Russian/Schofield, it's a top-break that pushes the rounds up when you open it.
Here's a picture.

The rigs (holsters and belts) really existed, in fact the belt loops are historical.

 

So 18 seconds, give or take?  Would it be outside the realm of feasibility for someone to do it in say 10 seconds?  With aligning the loading gate by hand?  I'm not talking regular folk, but highly specialised types.

More like 20-25 with Revolver Basics, at least double without it. 10s is beyond doable.

So you can load about 5 cartridges per half action?  Does this hold true for tube magazine lever action shotguns also?

Yes, the design of the shotguns differs little from the rifle.

You have no idea how silly I felt when I realised I don't know what happens when you pull the trigger on a single action.

Hey, you asked and now you know what happens.

[Sletchman]

Thanks again.

So 18 seconds, give or take?  Would it be outside the realm of feasibility for someone to do it in say 10 seconds?  With aligning the loading gate by hand?  I'm not talking regular folk, but highly specialised types.

More like 20-25 with Revolver Basics, at least double without it. 10s is beyond doable.

The problem I'm facing here is the Quickdraw feat, with its 2 free handle item actions.  Which means I'd have to not have any revolver feats lower load time, otherwise you'd be reducing load times to much.  So if the revolver starts with load 10 [5 rounds - 30 seconds, regular folk], that becomes effectively load 4 for people with quickdraw [2 full rounds - 12 seconds] if they take the 2 free handle item actions in round 1, 2, 3 and then fire as 2 half actions in round 3.  I might have to boost the base load time above 10.

I'm just now realising how butch Quickdraw is, and how far reaching its implications are.

[Agent 333]

You know, I knew the Single/Double action thing, then I suddenly panicked and doubted myself because you asked the question. Thanks for confirming that I had the right answer in my head guys.

And Turnip... don't worry about accuracy overmuch. Fun is more important than accuracy, in this case. The real trick is making it so that it's not more favorable to load each bullet once and not fill the cylinder each time.

[MugMug]

So far we've been discussing reality. That's a far cry from discussing game play. Go with "fun and workable" over "realistic."

Walter

[Sacretis]

Hah, I'm playing a Faceman at the moment that is heavily invested in revolvers.  Through some careful feat choice I've managed to make him an amazing old west style revolver master, and I plan to go Triggerman first chance I get.  With Revolver Basics, Snap Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, and the Triggerman abilities he will BE Jerry Miculek.  In fact, he will be better.

Sacretis

[Sletchman]

So far we've been discussing reality. That's a far cry from discussing game play. Go with "fun and workable" over "realistic."

Walter

And Turnip... don't worry about accuracy overmuch. Fun is more important than accuracy, in this case. The real trick is making it so that it's not more favorable to load each bullet once and not fill the cylinder each time.

My guiding star when GC'ing is rule of cool, I ignore rules that get in the way of fun for the group, I just wanted to make sure I started somewhere approaching reality, because frankly I know knew nothing about old guns.  I'm running on zero sleep for the last few days, but hopefully in the next 24 hours or so I'll post up my house rules, and you guys can critique [and judge them on both fun and realism].

[Sletchman]

Thread Necromancy, but at least its my thread.

I have another question: In a number of online shooters [notably Gears of War and Halo] there is a combo known as a "Two-Piece", where you melee attack your target, and follow it up with a shotgun blast while they are staggered.  My question is - Does anyone do this in real life? [I don't mean you guys personally].

For reference, here is a video for those who don't know what I'm talking about.

[OverNinja]

My question is - Does anyone do this in real life? [I don't mean you guys personally].

No and yes.

No, it's not a tactic that is taught (at least I don't know any military that teaches it).

Yes, you kill your enemy any way you can before he kills you.