Martial Arts

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Well, Njall, what would you suggest, then?

[Desertpuma]

Now that I'm home and reading the feat as written in FC, it is possible. One of the factors that has been set aside from the SC version of the feat is that whatever Stat you choose the modifier from that Stat also adds to damage because you've chosen to base your fighting style around that Stat.

Consider if you will a Courtier with a Charisma of 20 who bitchslaps your Soldier in court with a D6+5 damage because he can explain it away afterwards with cunning, guile, and a hefty Impress check. Or the Burglar who uses his speed & agility (aka Dex) to deliver lightning fast unarmed strikes. Or a Mage or Priest or Sage who uses their brains & wits to take apart your Soldier on the battlefield if you get too close. The chance that these could happen is gone unless the Martial Arts feat from the SC book is used which would allow them to do so. Plus, the Master's Art in SC does not just raise the damage & threat level, it also has you add your Dex & Str back into their normal positions including the modifier of your chosen Stat (which may allow the modifier to be doubled in the process).

These two feats were weakened for FC but really should have been kept as they are, possibly with the requirements adjusted slightly.

[Morgenstern]

A good build for generating maximum gradient, but even at a glance it could be improved. You've got two 3-feat chains tied up in adding Strength that don't really synergize with each other. I'd dump one of them, and definitely take Lightning reflexes to both captialize on the inititive bonus and to cover the reflex save which is sitting sort of low due to the 10 Dex.

Rage is also a good choice to pull in for this exercise, btu it's not exactly without a downside .

Lets see. With effectively nine feats to work with (replacing MA, Rage B/M, Axe B/M/S, Greatsword B/M/S) I'd lean towards a high Dex, low Str build and finesse weapons to cover the lack of str (which is generally easier to dump stat than DEX anyway as it has fewer associated skills and no save attached to it). Go fencing B/M/S (stat bump, auto-kill based on my high stat, basially the same as axe was grantign the other character) + Sword-Circle B/M/S (yes I know its new but they were all done around the same time from my perspective) for great synergy and some hard core defense (your parry is going to negate attacks like mad), and three feats left over to try and make up for the loss of attack bonus. How about the full Rage chain so he's got butch Strength and can still dish out his skill-based mojo? At a glance this character has better defense, more skills getting attribute bonuses, much better reflex saves, lost about 10-12 points of strength but can still hit reliably and is doing near equivalant damage because of finesse.

Usually the steepest gradient comes from classes that have built in attribute bonuses. You might get a more pronouced variance out of a Lancer. Keepers and Courtiers can both really milk an attribute, but without a high BAB progression there still not exactly leveraging the feat to max effect other than a hefty Defense bonus.

[Njall]

Well, Njall, what would you suggest, then?

Oh, I'm not suggesting a solution, just pointing out what seems to be a problem.
Yeah, I'm pretty lazy .
Anyway, I'll probably just houserule the feat to "Choose a stat for attack/damage and a different stat for defense/initiative, both work only when unarmed and unarmored". If I wanted to keep the defense and initiative bonuses when armed, it would be "Choose a stat for attack/damage and a different stat for defense/initiative, except Strength". It's not elegant, but it should work. 
 

Now that I'm home and reading the feat as written in FC, it is possible. One of the factors that has been set aside from the SC version of the feat is that whatever Stat you choose the modifier from that Stat also adds to damage because you've chosen to base your fighting style around that Stat.

Consider if you will a Courtier with a Charisma of 20 who bitchslaps your Soldier in court with a D6+5 damage because he can explain it away afterwards with cunning, guile, and a hefty Impress check. Or the Burglar who uses his speed & agility (aka Dex) to deliver lightning fast unarmed strikes. Or a Mage or Priest or Sage who uses their brains & wits to take apart your Soldier on the battlefield if you get too close. The chance that these could happen is gone unless the Martial Arts feat from the SC book is used which would allow them to do so. Plus, the Master's Art in SC does not just raise the damage & threat level, it also has you add your Dex & Str back into their normal positions including the modifier of your chosen Stat (which may allow the modifier to be doubled in the process).

These two feats were weakened for FC but really should have been kept as they are, possibly with the requirements adjusted slightly.

Eh, I'm not familiar with SC ( I tried convert to convert my group to d20 modern some years ago, but they all prefer fantasy settings, so I had to let it go).
Mind explaining how the original MA feat chain from SC works?
(BTW, it's pretty late here and english is not my first language, so if my grammar, spelling or logic are lacking, I apologize in advance ^^')

[Desertpuma]

The specific Martial Arts feat chain only had two feats -- the ones I listed. But you needed a BAB of 12+ & 2 other Unarmed Combat Feats to get Master's Art. The Martial Arts feat was only available if you were 6th level or better. Unless you either chose a specific Specialty which granted the feat or took a level of the Martial Artist Base Class.


Morgenstern FTW.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

"...work only when unarmed and unarmored".

This is a reasonably good fix.

[Krensky]

"...work only when unarmed and unarmored".

This is a reasonably good fix.

Other then the fact that it nerfs it into pointlessness.

It's never been an issue in the two years the feat's existed, Morg's explained why it's not an issue (and he's the guy who helped write the system).

[Njall]

A good build for generating maximum gradient, but even at a glance it could be improved. You've got two 3-feat chains tied up in adding Strength that don't really synergize with each other. I'd dump one of them, and definitely take Lightning reflexes to both captialize on the inititive bonus and to cover the reflex save which is sitting sort of low due to the 10 Dex.

Rage is also a good choice to pull in for this exercise, btu it's not exactly without a downside .

Lets see. With effectively nine feats to work with (replacing MA, Rage B/M, Axe B/M/S, Greatsword B/M/S) I'd lean towards a high Dex, low Str build and finesse weapons to cover the lack of str (which is generally easier to dump stat than DEX anyway as it has fewer associated skills and no save attached to it). Go fencing B/M/S (stat bump, auto-kill based on my high stat, basially the same as axe was grantign the other character) + Sword-Circle B/M/S (yes I know its new but they were all done around the same time from my perspective) for great synergy and some hard core defense (your parry is going to negate attacks like mad), and three feats left over to try and make up for the loss of attack bonus. How about the full Rage chain so he's got butch Strength and can still dish out his skill-based mojo? At a glance this character has better defense, more skills getting attribute bonuses, much better reflex saves, lost about 10-12 points of strength but can still hit reliably and is doing near equivalant damage because of finesse.

Usually the steepest gradient comes from classes that have built in attribute bonuses. You might get a more pronouced variance out of a Lancer. Keepers and Courtiers can both really milk an attribute, but without a high BAB progression there still not exactly leveraging the feat to max effect other than a hefty Defense bonus.

Well, the Rage Chain and Axe or Greatsword Chains synergize pretty well...if you don't take the Greatsword chain, you'll only lose a single point of defense, attack and damage, and you'll only need to take 6 feats. That leaves our soldier with 11 feats, enough to take 3 more full feat chains as well as Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will or Great Fortitude.
Furthermore, as you said a couple of posts earlier, weapon properties do matter. A two handed Axe or Sword doesn't spend any of his "budget" on finesse, thus being usually better.
Furthermore, your attack bonus will be far behind: even a full BAB class can't really afford to dump Str, if it wants to hit reliably and use Multiple Attacks and All-out-Attack.
Sure, I agree that a character that focuses on Dex will be pretty formidable as far as defending himself goes, but I mantain that he'll not be as strong as MA character in terms of offense, and they'll be matched in terms of defense ( or the MA guy might even come slightly ahead, since raising Dex is not so easy as raising Str, mainly due to the Rage chain ).
Basically, it's the old good CharOp meme: SAD beats MAD.
Anyway, the build you proposed seems interesting: care to flesh it out? I'll post mine, tomorrow, if you want, and we'll be able to compare them. As I said, I think the Str guy will come ahead, but I may be wrong

[Njall]

"...work only when unarmed and unarmored".

This is a reasonably good fix.

Other then the fact that it nerfs it into pointlessness.

It's never been an issue in the two years the feat's existed, Morg's explained why it's not an issue (and he's the guy who helped write the system).

I don't see why it should nerf the feat into uselessness...the feat is intended for unarmed fighters, it's labeled as an unarmed feat. It seems pretty good for someone that uses it as intended.

[Krensky]

I don't see why it should nerf the feat into uselessness...the feat is intended for unarmed fighters, it's labeled as an unarmed feat. It seems pretty good for someone that uses it as intended.

Just like the Rage chain?

Martial Arts as written is fine. It's been fine for two years, most of that in the crucible of organized play.

You can't stop certain folks from making cheese ball munchkin builds lifted from the dark corners of internet message boards. If someone shows up at your table with what you're worried about, tell them to make a new character. If they refuse, tell them to find a new table.

[Number Three]

I don't see why it should nerf the feat into uselessness...the feat is intended for unarmed fighters, it's labeled as an unarmed feat. It seems pretty good for someone that uses it as intended.

Just like the Rage chain?

Martial Arts as written is fine. It's been fine for two years, most of that in the crucible of organized play.

Berating him isn't helping prove your point, though.  Let him try the math.  The one thing that has changed is that the wholesale obliteration of prerequisites in Fantasy Craft means there's a lot more possible builds with Marital Arts.  If he can prove it going straight up against one of the designers, more power to him.  If he can't provide the numbers and still insists it's broken, that's his damage, not the books.

You can't stop certain folks from making cheese ball munchkin builds lifted from the dark corners of internet message boards. If someone shows up at your table with what you're worried about, tell them to make a new character. If they refuse, tell them to find a new table.

Not always an option.  Combat exclusive games happen, and the fact that D&D4 didn't face plant means that more people like them then care (or bother) to admit.  It's also not just a problem for the GM.  The great groaning at the end of 3.5 was from players who felt that the net-sheeted munchkins unrestrained by DM's were hogging the table spotlight.  That can be a valid mechanical problem.

[Morgenstern]

Actually, I'd have to say running Rage chain + low Dex is a very risky proposition. Trip is THE answer to characters in Berserk stance and Dex is the key attribute for preventing that. In a one-on-one, a Dex-monger is practically begging characters to go into that stance... whap, lose time (half action spent going in, half action picking yourself up) and a full helping of fatigued.

[Krensky]

Berating him isn't helping prove your point, though.  Let him try the math.  The one thing that has changed is that the wholesale obliteration of prerequisites in Fantasy Craft means there's a lot more possible builds with Marital Arts.  If he can prove it going straight up against one of the designers, more power to him.  If he can't provide the numbers and still insists it's broken, that's his damage, not the books.

I didn't say a word about him. If this feat is broken in FC, it was just as broken in SC since the argument put forward is that it's broken due to pure numbers. I fact, it would be even more broken at the higher level for the same reasons his math example has higher bonuses at higher levels.

Not always an option.  Combat exclusive games happen, and the fact that D&D4 didn't face plant means that more people like them then care (or bother) to admit.  It's also not just a problem for the GM.  The great groaning at the end of 3.5 was from players who felt that the net-sheeted munchkins unrestrained by DM's were hogging the table spotlight.  That can be a valid mechanical problem.

It's always an option. If you don't like how someone plays, including cheesy CharOp munchkining, don't play with them. If you want a combat only game, you'll propbably be happier playing a 4e Delve, or Descent, or Warhammer Quest, or whatever. I'm sure you have tons of skirmish level wargames and miniature games on your shelves that would better serve people who just want combat.

4e didn't fall flat because it still, mostly, supports game play other then moving miniatures around grid maps and killing monsters. At least that's what people tell me. That the game subscribes to the bondage and discipline school of mechanical balance helps cut down on the munchkin CharOp wankery, but the real issue comes from the GM not saying "No." when people show up with broken buld of the week.

[Morgenstern]

Its a reasonable challenge, though I tend to think 20th level is overkill . MA can circumvent some of Dex's utility, but not all of it. That and Strength is just not the power stat in FC that it is in D&D (which is why All out Attack and Rage are both quite kind to it). I think there are several uses for MA other than Str-based Martial Arts that will lead to a stronger character overall, but those generally play into the hands of classes that aren't first tier combatants to begin with (ponder the cha-martial arts paladin for a moement... might be something there...). I'm inclined to think I can build a Dex-monger that can deliver damage near the level a Str-monger can by means of finesse (another stat-swapping effect ). I think it may come down to point-blank ranged attacks to use Dex's bonus to attack. That character is going to risk grappling, but with ranged weapons and some entanglement to restrict movement... fleshing the build out is definitely worthwhile

Pouring over the feats, I'm giggling at the prospect of quickdraw, bullseye, hurled B/M/S and a stack of harpoons (possibly w/ finesse upgrade)... Good for strength characters, downright evil for Dex. I'll have to think on it further to really load things up .

[Agent 333]

Actually, reading this thread made me want to build a Con monkey Dwarf Soldier with Martial Arts.... wearing nothing but padded armor that's upgraded to hell (quasi-magical gi say what?).