Martial Arts

[Daedalus]

There was a bit of a discussion going on in Q&A about Martial Arts and how a character might get too much benefit from it.  Here would be a better place to discuss this, since the Q&A thread already has a bunch of posts dedicated to it, we need that thread cleared for more questions to the designers.  The posts in question are on pages 48-50 of the Q&A thread.


In my game currently, there is a Mage using Martial Arts with Intelligence.  His physical attributes are... not great to say the least, but he can at least defend himself with his hands when the need arises.  The main difficulty I see with this is that he won't be able to resist Grapple or Trip checks very well.  He has Acrobatics as an origin skill and has ranks in it, but it seems he'll still be in deep trouble when something decides to grapple him.

[Njall]

As I said elsewhere, my opinion is that the feat gives too much bang for your buck, allowing you to neglect your dex value.
Aside from the many benefits it gives ( 1d6, 19-20 weapon that can't be disarmed, a bonus to hit rolls and damage rolls when fighting unarmed, as well as defense and initiative all the time ), that put it far above any other 1st tier feat in the game, my problem is that it's too good when used by melee fighters to focus on just 1 attribute (  Strength, for example, but a soldier that selects Con as his MA attribute gets a lot from his Con score too: wounds, vitality, defense, initiative, fort save bonus...), neglecting dexterity.
Considering that anyone will probably have at least a 16 in a stat after races/talents modifier, it's easy to see that if you leave your dex score at 10, the feat itself will grant you a +3 bonus to Defense and Initiative.

I can understand that a mage or priest depending on his mental attributes is still at a disadvantage when someone tries to grapple or trip him; however, a character that's trained in acrobatics and athletics can have as far as 4 points invested in these skills at 1st level, making them as good as any 18 str, 18 dex character that does not have Acrobatics or Athletics as a class or origin skill; so, either anyone who doesn't have Acrobatics and Athletics as a class skill is screwed in melee combat past a certain level ( since Dex and Str bonuses don't scale as fast as a skill rank does ), or any character can get by with medium-low physical scores, as long as he can put some points in the right skills.
I'm not saying that, say, a -3 reflex or athletics/acrobatics isn't a disadvantage: what I'm saying is that it isn't a crippling disadvantage, and can often be ignored with the right choice of talents, race or skills.
My example in the Q&A thread was a Soldier focusing on Str with the Strong talent, that increases his Strength score and lets him count as if he were 1 size larger when resisting bullrush or trip attempts, thus making up for his low dexterity; furthermore, such character could also focus on his str score, increasing it with level based attribute increases as well as feats and stances, thus increasing the gap between str and dex modifier far more than the original +3 or +4 and gaining a fair advantage in terms of attack, damage, defense and initiative over a character that's forced to keep both his dex score and his str score on par.

[Sletchman]

Its funny you mention this, in all my experiance [GC'ing 2.0 since it came out, or playing in it almost non-stop], running FantasyCraft, playing in FantasyCraft.  I've seen alot of players take Martial Arts as a feat, only once was it used to dump dex, in fact in FantasyCraft alone, out of 4 characters with Martial Arts, 3 had it targeting Dex, and dumped Strength [the other had it targeting Cha, and was a mage / talker].

Just an observation, not a rebuttal.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

It seems the issue could be resolved if the "substitute for Dex/Str" part were broken up.

Possibly base it along the lines of choosing one/two of Defense/Initiative, attack rolls, damage, so that you end up with a variety of different styles.  (Master's Art would then give you the other two.one.)

[Daedalus]

What Njall said about Mages is already pretty true.  Unless the character has Acrobatics or Athletics as an Origin skill, they just don't get it at all.  This puts them at a huge disadvantage when it comes to resisting Grapples or Trips from the offset. 
Mages may desire the bonus Initiative just so that they go first more often,(for more accurate area of effects) or the bonus defense,(to defend them against crossbow bolts) assuming that they may have put three high attributes into their "Favored Attributes", none of which is Dexterity or Strength.  They also can do decent damage with decent accuracy while disarmed, which is an opposed attack roll, yet another reason Mages would want this.
The character is down one feat pick, which could be considered a disadvantage considering what other feats offer, but is there any reason not to take this feat as a Mage?  It seems to serve the varied purposes of:

A. Go first more often so that you don't have to engage in melee involuntarily or accidentally cast harmful spells upon friends.
B. Buffer your Defense against almost all (except Grapple/Trip/Tire/Threaten etc.) attacks so that you won't be hit as often.
C. Give yourself a weapon that hits about as hard as a Battle Axe(assuming the difference in modifiers are distant) that can't be taken away from the character, with much higher accuracy.
D. Boost any natural attacks you may have to be modified by an attribute that's favorable to your class, allowing a pretty broad range of interesting back-up weapons for Mages/Priests.

I doubt this feat will turn the tide in very many simulations, since monsters usually have plenty of tactics available, and certain types of monsters (especially those with tentacles) will wipe the floor with a Martial Arts Mage potentially even faster than a Mage who chose to increase Spellcasting potential, Wounds, Origin Athletics or some other build option.

[Morganti]

One thing to remember, is that spell save DCs are directly related to number of spell casting feats, and you can only ever get 13 by default.  So the question becomes, do I take martial arts to improve my combat survivability, or do i take a spell casting feat to make my spells harder to resist.  Especially since there aren't a lot of ways to improve your saving throws.

[Desertpuma]

If I recall in the Channeller, and I have yet to double-check in FC to see if it is there, but a Spellcasting feat exists which allows the caster ignore gestures when casting. If Grappled, this would be an ideal feat for a Mage or specialist caster to have as they would not be ineffective. Plus, as Morganti noted, the Spell Save DC would still go up. A Grappled Mage with that feat and the right spell(s) would not be at a disadvantage.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

There's Hidden Spells on p. 106, but the description of the effect only mentions not needing to speak specificially.

[Desertpuma]

In the Spellbound: Channeller pdf, it is listed. Crafty took each of the MetaMagic feats from 3E or 3.5E and made their own versions of them.

[Morgenstern]

With its lack of qualities, the attack given by the Martial Arts is still basically the weakest weapon you could possibly have. It's better than not having the feat, but it's not replacing much of anything. In the case of the Mage, you are far better off plinking away with polar ray I than gettting up close and personal with an otherwise unsupported theme.

The typical gradient between your best attribute modifier and the ones you are replacing is +3 to +4. If your Dexterity is lower than 10, it's going to catch up with you and Martial Arts is not going to protect you from all the things Dex plays into.

+3 to +4 initiative is nice, but it's hardly dominant. The +3 or +4 to your defense is juicy (probably the single best part of this feat if you are using is as a standalone choice to shore up a combat-weak class build), but again, its not like its the only base you need to cover.

Feats work through opportunity costs. Is Martial Arts a bad choice? No, definitiely not. But there are equivalent or better choices for most builds. As an investment in general survivability it's a great call, but there's a lot of other things you have to do to get its full value working for you.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

In some cases it would seem the bigger culprit is the Defense/Initiative substitution, because the attack/damage substitution is limited.  Perhaps the former should be made part of Master's Art?

[Morgenstern]

My point being that the defense substitution is the meat of the feat, and that the other stuff is by comparison small potatoes. Moving that element to Masters Art would make that feat absurdly overpowered (because the 'weapon' Master's Art is giving you is not run of the mill), while removing it from Martial Art would make that feat largely meh.

Its a good feat, with a lot of possilities for the defensively-minded player, but thus far I'm not hearing anything that suggests its the hands down best choice above all others for a character's precious feat slot choices.

Presenting a build where the inclusion of Martial Arts allows to really break something must proceed any changes. Analyzing feats in a vacuum is not strong grounds for errata.

[Desertpuma]

The SC version of the feat has the requirement of being at least 6th level unless you get it by Specialty or by the taking a level in the Martial Artist Base Class. The Master's Art feat used to require a BAB of 12+ as well.

The biggest reason to devote a feat to the Martial Arts feat, now that there is no restriction or additional requirements, is to get to the Master's Art feat. The Martial Arts feat by itself is a solid but not overpowering feat at all.

[Gentry]

I'd shine it anyway, and work to score my Mage the Knife Supremacy feat at 6th level. Come grapple me now, bitch.

[Njall]

My point being that the defense substitution is the meat of the feat, and that the other stuff is by comparison small potatoes. Moving that element to Masters Art would make that feat absurdly overpowered (because the 'weapon' Master's Art is giving you is not run of the mill), while removing it from Martial Art would make that feat largely meh.

Its a good feat, with a lot of possilities for the defensively-minded player, but thus far I'm not hearing anything that suggests its the hands down best choice above all others for a character's precious feat slot choices.

Presenting a build where the inclusion of Martial Arts allows to really break something must proceed any changes. Analyzing feats in a vacuum is not strong grounds for errata.

I'll have to disagree here. It's not a feat that's useful to the defensively-minded player, it's a feat that makes concentrating on offense without paying a toll in terms of defense far too easy.
Take the aforementioned Strong Human Soldier.
With the default point buy, he can start with: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12. Pretty well rounded, isn't it? Now, select Strong as your talent. That's 18 Str right out of the box.
As soon as you select MA (Str) as a feat, you've just negated the worst problems this character had in combat: his low Defense and Initiative.
Furthermore, while at level 1 the bonus from the feat ( +4 defense, +4 initiative ) is not game breaking, at higher levels things change quite a bit: at level 10, his strength is: 18+2( level increase )+1(Axe/Greatsword Supremacy)+3(Rage Basics)=24 in combat. That's +7 defense.
By the time our character is level 20, his strength score becomes: 18+5(level increase)+1(Axe/Greatsword Supremacy)+5(Rage Mastery)=29, 30 if he takes both Axe Supremacy and Greatsword Supremacy.
That's a whopping +9/+10 defense and +7 initiative (since he isn't raging when Initiative is rolled) from a single feat. As a comparison, Mobility Mastery, a 2nd tier feat, gives a meager +2 defense, and only if you take a move action in the round.
This guy didn't take a single defensive feat aside from MA, which alone makes up for his only glaring weakness: his defense at 20th level can be as high as [10+10(Str)+12(soldier defense bonus)+5(Armor Use V)+4(portable cover)+2(guard property, Axe/Greatsword Basics)]=43. Meanwhile, his attack bonus is [+20( class)+1(forte)+10(Str)]=31, and his Initiative is +19. If you compare him to a character that's trying to balance Str and Dex, the latter is not even close (don't trust me, create such a character without the help of MA and post a build, if you don't mind ).

Furthermore, while I agree that you pay some sort of opportunity cost when you select MA, I'd say that an opportunity cost is only significant if what you choose is not heaps and bounds better than any other option in the book.

[Edit: counted Portable Cover twice  ]