Movement and Reach

[Viperion]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been asked, I did a couple of searches for it and came up blank.

On p204 under "Movement" it (basically) says if you are adjacent to an opponent, you can only take a 5-foot step unless you Tumble or move in such a way that after 10 feet you aren't adjacent any more. Two bullet points above that it defines adjacent as "within 5ft".

On the next page it defines Reach as part of Melee Range, stating that Reach 1 means only adjacent characters are within your melee range.

Now to the meat: Either races (Giants) or weapons (frex, Boar Spear) mean you have Reach 2 (or higher). I can't find anywhere it says that an increase in Reach means an increase in "adjacency".

Does this mean that if you are a Giant, even though you have Reach 2, you can't stop people from moving right up (i.e adjacent) to you?

Thanks,
Viperion

(P.S This should probably go in the Q&A thread, I guess... if a mod wants to move it, go ahead )

[Psion]

Now to the meat: Either races (Giants) or weapons (frex, Boar Spear) mean you have Reach 2 (or higher). I can't find anywhere it says that an increase in Reach means an increase in "adjacency".

Does this mean that if you are a Giant, even though you have Reach 2, you can't stop people from moving right up (i.e adjacent) to you?

AFAIK, that's correct. It just lets you attack further.

[Crafty_Alex]

Now to the meat: Either races (Giants) or weapons (frex, Boar Spear) mean you have Reach 2 (or higher). I can't find anywhere it says that an increase in Reach means an increase in "adjacency".

Does this mean that if you are a Giant, even though you have Reach 2, you can't stop people from moving right up (i.e adjacent) to you?

That is correct. Adjacency is the only thing that matters for purposes of "sticking" people from moving past. Reach does not increase your adjacency (or let you abuse blocking rules).

[Viperion]

Ah OK. In that case I have to re-read something I thought I read here (in the "Giants have no stat mods" thread. I thought I read that their Reach 2 was a big advantage because they could control movement across the battlefield. Maybe they were talking about the footprint, rather than the reach.

Cheers,
Viperion

[Foghorn]

Maybe an idea for a Species feat for allowing you to extend your 'adjacency' based off of your Reach

[Dhampire]

Maybe an idea for a Species feat for allowing you to extend your 'adjacency' based off of your Reach

Then you have to start worrying about Ogres (Reach 2) using Spears (Reach +1) with Spear Basics (+1 Reach).

Hrm, so a Devil (Ogre Fire Brave) wielding a pitchfork (Trident/Fork) is scary in that instance.  Hrm.

[Sletchman]

Maybe an idea for a Species feat for allowing you to extend your 'adjacency' based off of your Reach

I wouldn't make it a Species feat, I'd make it some kind of combat feat, probably basic.  Like:

Large and In Charge
Requires: Large size or larger.
Benefits: Your Strength increases by 1, and you gain a stance.
Wall of Steel (Stance): Any standard character within your reach counts as adjacent to you.  You may not move while in this stance, except to make your 5ft bonus step.

[Daedalus]

Ah OK. In that case I have to re-read something I thought I read here (in the "Giants have no stat mods" thread. I thought I read that their Reach 2 was a big advantage because they could control movement across the battlefield. Maybe they were talking about the footprint, rather than the reach.

Cheers,
Viperion

Well, looking at it from a geometric point of view, Giants do have an advantage in this respect.  Their foot print (2x2) means that 12 squares are adjacent to them, and that they can act as a bigger blocker with 4 squares on their front as opposed to 3 for smaller people. 
In addition, whenever an attack allows them to attack all characters within 10' of them, it allows the to attack a total of 32 (6x6-4) squares, as compared to a medium character's 24 (5x5-1) squares.  When combined with feats and abilities that punish characters for being flat-footed or not moving/moving into your adjacency, this can be phenomenal.

An example would be Axe Basics/Greatsword Basics, which punish characters for not moving since your last turn, and Club Supremacy/Greatsword Supremacy, which can trip/attack every target in the region, and (AFAIK) allows you to discriminate between friends and foes. This is a benefit that may cause Mages to envy the Giant, epecially at low levels.

Consider also the Cleave series of feats, which allow a Giant to drop "muscle bombs" across the battlefield with their extended reach.

[Mister Andersen]

The answer then, if you're extending adjacency to reach, is to make it an unarmed attack trick

[Desertpuma]

I agree with Mister A. ... It works best as an unarmed feat

[Sletchman]

I agree with Mister A. ... It works best as an unarmed feat

What if you intend it to work with polearms?  Two feats? Or one multipurpose feat?

[Desertpuma]

I think there would essentially already be feats for polearms that extended reach like those listed above. The real question becomes would they be permitted to be stacked and my gut says no.

[Daedalus]

The problem that might occur with this is that you could turn a relatively minor advantage (2 reach + whatever weapons offer) into a major advantage. (2 adjacency + whatever weapons offer)  With just Spear Basics and a Giant Throwing Spear you're looking at reach (adjacency) 4 with two feats.

Adding 2 or sometimes 3 adjacency would make it so that the Total Defense tricks available that keep characters away via force/damage would trigger multiple times during a round.  Assuming that is hand-waved, it still allows a Giant to control a vary large portion of the battlefield and allow weird effects. 

Limiting it to unarmed only would prevent some (if not all) of the abuse allowed, seeing as how I don't really like the idea of Greatsword Mastery/Fencing Supremacy/Staff Mastery/Shield Supremacy + Extended Adjacency, it just compounds the advantage of improved reach and makes it harder to justify choosing another race for a melee fighter.

Here's an idea:
Wall of Fists
Unarmed Total Defense Trick:
Until your next Initiative Count, squares within your Reach are considered adjacent.  Characters attempting to enter squares adjacent to you must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + unarmed attack modifier + number of Unarmed Combat feats you have) or end their movement in the previous square.  You can use this trick a number of times per combat equal to the number of unarmed combat feats that you have.

That way, they can stop most monsters from getting within their Reach, instead of only stopping things once they're adjacent.  It has some synergy for Martial Arts characters, but also prevents the super-synergy that kind of scares me with Melee Combat feat users. 
It could also be modified to have Str/Dex as a fixed modifier to prevent potential abuse, although this trick only has use if your Initiative Count is before your opponents'.

[MugMug]

although this trick only has use if your Initiative Count is before your opponents'.

It only has utility on the first round if your Initiative Count is before your opponents. In later rounds it lasts from your present Init Count to your next Init Count, affecting your opponents actions between the two. A simple 5-ft. step puts you out of their adjacency, with successive steps removing you from Reach (if the first step wasn't enough).

Walter

[Daedalus]

It only has utility on the first round if your Initiative Count is before your opponents. In later rounds it lasts from your present Init Count to your next Init Count, affecting your opponents actions between the two. A simple 5-ft. step puts you out of their adjacency, with successive steps removing you from Reach (if the first step wasn't enough).

Walter

Actually, I was trying to verify this, but it's not totally the case.  Total Defense is a "Movement action", and taking the 5' bonus step precludes taking Movement actions during the round, even before the step.  Granted the option still remains to disengage the target if no other opponents are around or to Tumble out of the way and (with Surge of Speed or other bonus actions) activate Total Defense. 
It loses a lot of its utility after the first round, but you're right that certain builds will be able to use it well regardless of that.