Lever-Actions

[Gentry]

Anybody ever cook up stats (or are there stats in a dusty corner somewhere) for lever-action rifles?

[Mister Andersen]

Aren't the Lee Enfield and the M-1 Garand in the gear section?

Not to mention the vast bulk of sniper rifles being lever action.

[Valentina]

Aren't the Lee Enfield and the M-1 Garand in the gear section?

Not to mention the vast bulk of sniper rifles being lever action.

No no, they're Bolt Action. Different principle and results. The Enfield is lever-action, I think. I know the Garand's not. It uses a stripper clip with an internal magazine and is semi-auto.

[OverNinja]

M1 Garand is a semi-auto rifle and Lee-Enfield is a bolt-action rifle.

Sniper rifles are generally bolt-action (gives them better accuracy, as there is no moving parts). Semi-auto sniper rifles are used usually by the the designated marksmen and are usually used at shorter ranges where follow-up shots might be necessary.

Lever-action rifles are used by civilian hunters. I don't know any military or police force that uses lever-action rifle as part of their TO&E.

As a quick rule any lever-action rifle would have MAC (2) in addition to any other requirement. Their Error range would be similar to a semi-auto (lots of moving parts).

[Mister Andersen]

If pump-action shotguns don't have the MAC quality, why should lever action ones?

[OverNinja]

Doh! Drop the MAC.

Comparing those two I'd say pump-action is more deserving of the MAC quality, still they're both slower than a semi-auto (although there was this guy who could put 38 rounds out of a Lee-Enfield into a target at 300 yards in 1 minute).

[Crafty_Alex]

*sigh* Bolt action rifles have MAC. Lever action rifles, were I to write them right now, would also have MAC, not only for balance but also for consistency.

Pump action shotguns have enough going against them for most Spycraft missions (dissipating damage via shot, crummy range, difficulty in concealment) that not having MAC brings them up to par in many ways. Plus MAC on a pump does not fit the cinematic use of shotguns, where a guy basically depresses the trigger and blam-blam-blam tears up a room (see the Matrix).

Ergonomics may help us see the thinking here:

* Pumping a shotgun (no MAC) - fire, reload back-forth, with your hand still in the bracing position the whole time, fire. Shooting hand never moves.
* Chambering a bolt action round (MAC 2) - fire, move hand from trigger to action, lift up catch, pull back, push forward, flip down catch, return hand to trigger, fire.   
* Lever action (proposed MAC) - fire, move hand from trigger to action, forward, back, return hand to trigger, fire.

Seems the fact you must remove your shooting hand from the trigger to reload is a major component of the MAC quality, as it forces you to reacquire your aim and stance (even if a little). If you want lever actions to be faster than bolt actions, I'd suggest rolling with MAC 1 instead of MAC 2.

[OverNinja]

Thanks Alex!

Could you tell me how you calculate the damage for different rounds?
So far I've been using the old Twilight 2000 Infantry Weapons of the World to calculate values and then matched them to an existing round with similar values.

[Mister Andersen]

Super-secret algorithm based on I think the kinetic energy of the round, as modified by penetrative properties of the thing and little cinematic flare where appropriate.

[Mister Andersen]

Pump action shotguns have enough going against them for most Spycraft missions (dissipating damage via shot, crummy range, difficulty in concealment) that not having MAC brings them up to par in many ways. Plus MAC on a pump does not fit the cinematic use of shotguns, where a guy basically depresses the trigger and blam-blam-blam tears up a room (see the Matrix).

If cinematics are entering into things, I could point to countless Westerns that argue against MAC for lever action rifles. especially all those ones with fights where the characters relentlessly advance firing from the hip.

I suppose there could always be a MAC version of Revolver Basics...

[Crafty_Alex]

Thanks Alex!

Could you tell me how you calculate the damage for different rounds?
So far I've been using the old Twilight 2000 Infantry Weapons of the World to calculate values and then matched them to an existing round with similar values.

Sorry, no can do. Trade secret. Besides, as the author of Bag Full of Guns, I'm not crazy to put myself out of business.

[Crafty_Alex]

If cinematics are entering into things, I could point to countless Westerns that argue against MAC for lever action rifles. especially all those ones with fights where the characters relentlessly advance firing from the hip.

I suppose there could always be a MAC version of Revolver Basics...

Cinematically or not, I think the 'removing firing hand from shooting position to chamber a round' is an excellent arguement for why MAC is on bolt actions and not on pump actions. The most infamous use of a lever action is Arnold's lever action shotgun (?) in Terminator 2, and that clearly took a while for him to chamber the next round. The people shooting lever-actions quickly in westerns are guys who typically entirely dedicated to rifles, so I would a feat, or even better a Practice Makes Perfect 2 trick, to ignore MAC would be a good counterbalance I reckon. Certainly fitting for the Western game.

[OverNinja]

Totally understand.

[Bubbalin]

Doh! Drop the MAC.

Comparing those two I'd say pump-action is more deserving of the MAC quality, still they're both slower than a semi-auto (although there was this guy who could put 38 rounds out of a Lee-Enfield into a target at 300 yards in 1 minute).

<Hijack>
Didn't the Germans think they were facing machine guns against the English regulars during WW1? I heard that they were supposed to have half a section getting off aimed shots from a 10 round mag in a minute, then they stepped back and the second half of the section took over.
</Hijack>

[OverNinja]

Yes, something like that.

The British troopers were trained to fire approximately 15 aimed shots per minute, something that made the Germans to think that they were indeed facing machinegun units.

Sergeant Instructor Snoxall (of the British School of Musketry) is the guy that fired 38 hits in 1 minute inside the 4-ring at 300 yards.