Sage's Breadth of Experience

[MDL]

It's funny that you mentioned it.  I went back to look at the other spell casting classes (Priest and the Experts) and only the Alchemist has Spellcasting as a class skill, so really the only way to become a Rune Knight RAW is through the Mage class or taking Alchemist first.  Giving Sages the ability to read scrolls at caster level 4 and eventually take levels in Rune Knight doesn't seem like it's game-wrecking to me, but a savvy Sage may take full advantage to test your patience.

There's one more route to Rune Knight.  Priest following an alignment that grants the Magic path.  For the first ten levels (aka, until they max out at five steps on the Magic path) they wind up with the same caster level, spell points and spell levels available as a mage.  They lack the other tasty class abilities to boost their casting, but they've got a better hit die and BAB than a mage.  Definitely make an attractive means of building a rune knight.  Favored Gear on the ritual weapon also means you can layer lots of item based abilities on that one key item, which will be rather tough to destroy or otherwise remove (though, admittedly, you would really have issues if you did lose it for awhile...)

[Adal]

So I guess this has turned into a question for the Crafty Guys: Does Subtle and Quick to Anger give a Sage a Caster Level?  If so, then what level of a caster?  If not, is the Circle of Power I feature only for Mages who multiclass into Sage?

I know they answered this one, but I had to use Mr. Anderson's masterlist to find the proof.

When a cross-trained ability uses Class or Casting Level to determine its effect, it is considered to be 4.

Emphasis mine.  Sage's can cast cantrips, and it's a valid path to Rune Knight.

As for buying ranks in Spellcasting, at my table, I'd rule that you need a class ability that explicitly states you can buy it.  FYI, I 'm coming from Spycraft, where Spellcasting is a Power.  It looks like a Skill, acts like a Skill, and quacks like a Skill, but is not, in fact, a Skill.

Hmm, doesn't quite answer the question. If a Sage can buy the skill, he can use 4 as his casting level. But if he doesn't have an actual casting level, he might or might not be able to buy the skill, depending on whether or not the sentence on page 111 means that you can:
1)buy the skill but can't use it, or
2)more likely that the skill cannot be chosen or
3)it might be chosen, but you can't take ranks in it unless you pick up a caster level from some other class first.

For a home game, I feel that the rule of cool (and the fact that you can't get the ability until 4th level anyway) means that you can choose the skill for BoE, but not use it until you can either get or fake a caster level. It might be game breaking if scrolls or the like are common enough, but you're getting about half the spellcasting over your career that a mage would, so I think I'd be fine with it. I like jacks of all trades, but I've never been fond of the musical part of bards. This is the perfect blend for me.

[Daedalus]

Sorry Number Three.  I didn't see where they answered that.  The Caster Level portion of their response isn't in the .pdf, so it was possibly in the errata thread?  But since you pulled it up, thanks for that. 

I would probably surmise that they need to take Subtle and Quick to Anger, at which point the Sage "becomes" a level 4 Spellcaster, and then they select spells known and can invest in Spellcasting skill.  This makes BoE slightly less useful, but it still has plenty of stuff going for it.

Since this is already on topic, I was wondering how this was read under Cross-Training: "You may choose most abilities only once but when 2 or more grades follow an ability name you may take it multiple times, gaining 1 grade each time it’s taken."  Is it that saying that any ability that has "grades" can be taken more than once, or that explicitly say "Ability I, II"? There are none that seem to allow this besides "Soldier: Fight on x2" which isn't a graded ability.

[Daedalus]

There's one more route to Rune Knight.  Priest following an alignment that grants the Magic path.  For the first ten levels (aka, until they max out at five steps on the Magic path) they wind up with the same caster level, spell points and spell levels available as a mage.  They lack the other tasty class abilities to boost their casting, but they've got a better hit die and BAB than a mage.  Definitely make an attractive means of building a rune knight.  Favored Gear on the ritual weapon also means you can layer lots of item based abilities on that one key item, which will be rather tough to destroy or otherwise remove (though, admittedly, you would really have issues if you did lose it for awhile...)

Aweome idea!  I did not see it earlier.  Sometimes I forget about Path of Magic, but it is one of the most versatile if not the most versatile among the paths.  Investing that much love into an item has obvious advantages and disadvantages like you say, but some people really do love items that much.  The Sacred Weapon Mask of God at level 6 would be worth the wait in this case.

[Number Three]

Hmm, doesn't quite answer the question. If a Sage can buy the skill, he can use 4 as his casting level. But if he doesn't have an actual casting level, he might or might not be able to buy the skill, depending on whether or not the sentence on page 111 means that you can:
1)buy the skill but can't use it, or
2)more likely that the skill cannot be chosen or
3)it might be chosen, but you can't take ranks in it unless you pick up a caster level from some other class first.

Subtle and Quick to Anger flat out states that you can buy ranks in a Spellcasting.  I'd say that trumps the spell descirption.  What you don't get out of the deal is any access to spell points.

[Number Three]

Sorry Number Three.  I didn't see where they answered that.

Clearing up the "cross-caster" has been my fourm crusade since the Seer came out. 

Since this is already on topic, I was wondering how this was read under Cross-Training: "You may choose most abilities only once but when 2 or more grades follow an ability name you may take it multiple times, gaining 1 grade each time it’s taken."  Is it that saying that any ability that has "grades" can be taken more than once, or that explicitly say "Ability I, II"? There are none that seem to allow this besides "Soldier: Fight on x2" which isn't a graded ability.

I believe it would explicitly say "Ability I, II", but I haven't seen that situation show up yet in Fantasy Craft or Spycraft.  It certainly isn't saying that you can take the same grade more than once form the same class, as the ability isn't intended to give you anything beyond a Level 4 class ability.  Note that this doesn't prevent you from taking the same graded ability from different classes.  That's basic multi-classing tech. 

[knight.errant]

Hmm, doesn't quite answer the question. If a Sage can buy the skill, he can use 4 as his casting level. But if he doesn't have an actual casting level, he might or might not be able to buy the skill, depending on whether or not the sentence on page 111 means that you can:
1)buy the skill but can't use it, or
2)more likely that the skill cannot be chosen or
3)it might be chosen, but you can't take ranks in it unless you pick up a caster level from some other class first.

Subtle and Quick to Anger flat out states that you can buy ranks in a Spellcasting.  I'd say that trumps the spell descirption.  What you don't get out of the deal is any access to spell points.

Emphasis mine.

Was this ever answered somewhere else and I missed it. Does a sage get any spell points if he cross-trains as a mage at 4th level?

[Agent 333]

No spell points. Though that can be remedied by taking the Spell Power feat if you really wanted to. My personal preference is to use the Sage's Cross-Training on Circle of Power I and use Blessed(Path of Magic) to pick up Subtle and Quick to Anger + 4 spell points.

[knight.errant]

Hmmm...

That's rather disappointing.  I don't really like the idea of taking feats to get around what seems like an oversight of some kind. It doesn't feel like cross-training if you can't actually cast any 1st level or higher spells you know.

And just to clarify, because I missed it at first glance, the Sage gets to choose one of the Base Class Abilities listed after each class--not all of them.

Thanks for the help again.

[Daedalus]

One each time they receive Cross-Training, yes.  Subtle isn't bad by itself, but it's essentially a buffed-up version of The Gift if left alone.  If you project which spell levels the Sage/? will eventually receive, you can have a wide array of low-level spells at your disposal, especially with a high Wisdom.  Spell Power isn't really a waste of a feat since it adds to DC's and can eventually add a nice amount of spell points to the mix. 

Blessed(Path of Magic) isn't a bad entryway either, alongside choosing Circle of Power I as Agent 333 suggested.  That with Spell Power puts you at 10+Cha mod.+2 on DC's and able to cast level 1 spells. 

At level 4, you're looking at 7 spell points, which means the Sage is almost keeping pace with the Mage.  This benefit will lessen over time, but knowing where your spell advancement will end allows you to grab a larger array of level 0 and 1 spells.  This combined with skill versatility is a great thing.  Also, don't underestimate the Take 10/Take 20 results on key spells, especially Disguise Self and other spells that typically don't suffer from time sensitivity.

[Morgenstern]

Cross-training and spellcasters set up a couple of opposing problems. Two classes have the ability and one of them is already a full fledged caster, so comming up with a uniform solution that works equitably for both cases was something I was still mulling over when I left Crafty Games.

On the one hand Seers should probably flatly not be allowed to cross-train for Circle of Power I. It lets them blow the snot out of the spell progression curve. They also really don't need to be getting extra spell points from their Cross-training choices.

On the other the Sage allowed access to all four of the level 1-4 abilites will eventually need spell points.

Hmm.

If cross-training doesn't include Circle of Power I as an option (i.e. there are only 3 abilites on the list for "full-caster" classes like Mage and Channeler), most of the problems resolve themselves. The Sage dabling in Mage doesn't NEED spell points because he's only casting level 0 spells anyway. The Seer doesn't need them because he already got 2 for that level.

So yeah, delete circle of power I from the list and both problems go away.

[Psion]

No spell points. Though that can be remedied by taking the Spell Power feat if you really wanted to. My personal preference is to use the Sage's Cross-Training on Circle of Power I and use Blessed(Path of Magic) to pick up Subtle and Quick to Anger + 4 spell points.

Why not take acolyte and path of the devoted (and possibly blessed) using Path of Magic and save Circle of Power I once you run out of options for expanding your spell progression? That gives the most spell points.

[knight.errant]

No spell points. Though that can be remedied by taking the Spell Power feat if you really wanted to. My personal preference is to use the Sage's Cross-Training on Circle of Power I and use Blessed(Path of Magic) to pick up Subtle and Quick to Anger + 4 spell points.

Why not take acolyte and path of the devoted (and possibly blessed) using Path of Magic and save Circle of Power I once you run out of options for expanding your spell progression? That gives the most spell points.

That certainly would maximize spell points and casting, excellent idea--thanks. With that said, I still stumble over how Alignments work in FC. I get how it works rules-wise, just conceptually I guess it sometimes stumps me.

[Daedalus]

You need to (or your GM needs to) establish the Alignments before play.  I'm going through mine in Wyrmstone right now without a sufficient roadmap since the opposed Alignments aren't posted.

Rules of thumb for Alignments seem to be:
1. Abstract Concepts get fewer paths,(2-3) and maybe one opposed.
2. Organizational or Divine Alignments get more paths,(4-5) but have more complex relationships, including multiple opposed.

EDIT: Q&A Thread BAWW!!  At least they still get 0's.

[spinningdice]

Blessed (Spellcasting Feat) & Acolyte (Priest ability) can't be stacked onto the same path right? They both say first step on one of your paths...