Sage's Breadth of Experience

[Mister Andersen]

Enh.  With all due respect, Alex, I'm not real fond of (or maybe I should say "comfortable with") that reasoning.  The core abilities of the core book's base classes shouldn't rely on future supplements to hit their full potential.  From the beginning back in SC1, core abilities were one of the system's major differentiators when held up against competing products, and they were both useful and consistently unique from Level 1 throughout a character's entire progression.  Several of the FC classes have core abilities that, to me, violate this ethos.

- C.

The only core abilities I see in the book that seem to violate the aforementioned paradigm(to be fair, I haven't read SC) are these two:
Assassin's Heart Seeker: Because it's pretty useful but there was legitimate ambiguity around OP's question.

Sage's Breadth of Experience:
This bonus seems weak to me unless I'm misinterpreting it in some way.  Adding four MORE skills to your class list after Origin skills for a Sage makes it so that you need to have the highest possible Intelligence and/or spread yourself a little thin just to take advantage of it. An 18 Intelligence sage will always have those 8 extra skill points left over when choosing ranks beyond level maximum unless they're Enlightened or Prodigal, while feats like Talented and qualities like Paired Skills (X+Y) will provide far more skill points over a character's career than Breadth of Experience.

Most other Core abilities seem to come into play right away without strong dependence upon what the character's attributes/talents/specialties are.  Some require you to take certain feats in order to share them, but I hardly have complaints sharing feats with others that I took because they were worthwhile.  Don't get me wrong, Sage is my second favorite class after Priest, but it seems this ability lacks the oomph required to draw people into the class, which I desperately want someone to use in my game.

It's probably worth a separate thread (or retitling this one), but yeah, the Sage is also on my list of classes with core abilities that don't seem up to the challenge.  Also, I think the Lancer could do with some clarification - it's my favorite basic class and the direct heir to the Wheelman, but it's a bit ambiguous in just how useful it is.

- C.

Truth be told, I've always hated the Pointman. It's never been a class in any way shape or form capable of shining or lasting on its own and the original juxtaposition of core and 1st level ability largely made it pointless ever cross classing into the thing after career level 1 unless (a) you had completely screwed your build and desperately needed skill ranks for a PrC/ExC, and (b) even had the spare ranks to spend. Worse, havign to wait until 6th level to pick up something for yourself via X-Class Ability was a monumental deal breaker.

Reinventing the class as the Sage has changed some of that. Moving Cross-Training from the E to the D position in the class was a stroke of genius (though honestly I would have made it a C_odd ability myself. The new 1st level ability makes it worthwhile taking the 1st level at any point during a character's career in order to pick up a team booster.

When it comes to the new core ability, I get what others are saying that at first gloss it's not exciting. It's kinda like those other abilities that lift your maximum ranks in a particular skill: at first you think "great" until you realise that you arguably effectively have even less skill ranks per level than you used to for other skills if you want to take advantage of it. I'm sure it makes sense for folks aiming towards specialist builds and it's all part of the system of checks and balances but as a skills generalist it's really anaethema to me.

But look at it this way. On the plus side, you are getting 2 skill ranks per each of the 4 skills the ability lets you pick up, which if nothing else removes the 0-rank skill cap from them for the rest of the game. Used strategically I suppose you could use that choice of 4 skills to support future ExC choices that your otherwise limited number of origin skills don't always support.

It's also reasonably flavourable for Elves who don't want to get screwed over by the Iconic Classes penalty (though personally a species that long lived really should be starting out with extra Origin skills or interests).

OTOH, I think BoE would work a lot better if it simply granted additional Origin skills (even if it was without the ranks to fill them them out). Two origin skills + 1 bonus skill point per sage level would I think be absolutely ideal.

[Morgenstern]

*shrug* up to 16 class/origin skills and and an extra 8 skill points to help you dable in them should scream 'guy who knows a bit about everything'.

[Morgenstern]

Moving Cross-Training from the E to the D position in the class was a stroke of genius (though honestly I would have made it a C_odd ability myself.

So they'd still get it 5 times (3/7/11/15/19), but they'd be locked out of collecting other people's 4th level abilites (because there is no way in hell Sage is getting an ability before the class that owns it does...) and likely set their effective level with all abilites 1 lower so they can grab it a level sooner each time?

Bleh.

[Morgenstern]

(though personally a species that long lived really should be starting out with extra Origin skills or interests).

Based on what exactly? I smell massive human-based-psychology assumption lurking about.

[Daedalus]

When it comes to the new core ability, I get what others are saying that at first gloss it's not exciting. It's kinda like those other abilities that lift your maximum ranks in a particular skill: at first you think "great" until you realise that you arguably effectively have even less skill ranks per level than you used to for other skills if you want to take advantage of it. I'm sure it makes sense for folks aiming towards specialist builds and it's all part of the system of checks and balances but as a skills generalist it's really anaethema to me.

But look at it this way. On the plus side, you are getting 2 skill ranks per each of the 4 skills the ability lets you pick up, which if nothing else removes the 0-rank skill cap from them for the rest of the game. Used strategically I suppose you could use that choice of 4 skills to support future ExC choices that your otherwise limited number of origin skills don't always support.

It's also reasonably flavourable for Elves who don't want to get screwed over by the Iconic Classes penalty (though personally a species that long lived really should be starting out with extra Origin skills or interests).

Thanks for giving me a new perspective on this Mr. A.  I thought of a few good reasons why BoE might be the way it is:

1.  Getting those first two ranks in skills that can't be used untrained allows them to use the Best of the Best class feature for themselves.  I am assuming in this case that the "untrained use" penalty applies to Best of the Best.
Example: When a Scout tries to use Impress with 0 ranks, even though he gets to use the Courtier's bonus, he still suffers from the max DC 15 restriction and the 2 error range penalty.

2. As written, unlike when choosing Origin skills, a Sage could gain ranks in Spellcasting through BoE.  This supports what you said earlier.  While this doesn't necessarily give him "Caster Levels", it allows him to use Scrolls and take levels in the Rune Knight class or any future Expert classes that require Spellcasting ranks.  Taking Cross-Class: Circle of Power I at level 4 right before taking Rune Knight at 5 gives them a head start that other non-Mage classes don't get when entering that class.

3. Failing either of these two scenarios, the Sage's Hand of Fate allows them to take a Chance feat until the end of the adventure.  Once of my character concepts for a Human Sage involves gaining a talent that offers Grace under Pressure and then taking the Fortunate feat and eventually Lady Luck's Smile for maximum effect.  This temporary feat would add to starting bonus action dice per session, which is just fantastic in my book.  A handful of d4's+3 that explode 50% of the time for anyone's check is a beautiful thing. These could be used "selfishly" to give those BoE skills a much-needed boost when things are getting desperate, like when the primary skill user goes unconscious.

4. BoE further enhances the "auto-success" abilities like Hand of Death and Born in the Saddle that can be acquired through Cross-Training.  It allows the Sage to "set and forget" skills that he would rather not spend his ranks on, leaving his skill ranks free for skills that reward his concept more generously.  

5. I originally got caught up in the old D&D mentality that if a skill isn't "maxed out" then it's not worth using, but Fantasy Craft's DC's seem to scale a lot better.  The Sage seems able to adapt their skill rank expenditure to either the Static or Sliding DC paradigm, though the latter puts them at a slight disadvantage compared to specialists.  Increments of 5 on DC's allow the Sage to calculate his chances of success for any given difficulty, while the sliding system weakens point 4 of this post by quite a bit.

Anyway, thanks again for your input.  I just needed a little encouragement from the community on something that genuinely disturbed me as a Sage fanboy.  Anyway, it's getting late where I am.  Hopefully this post looks coherent when you read it, but I'll edit it tomorrow if it seems particularly silly.

[Mister Andersen]

*shrug* up to 16 class/origin skills and and an extra 8 skill points to help you dabble in them should scream 'guy who knows a bit about everything'.

True, but since you can't get cross class skills anymore, Origin skills are just so very shiny now that any chance to pick them up is worth taking.

Moving Cross-Training from the E to the D position in the class was a stroke of genius (though honestly I would have made it a C_odd ability myself.

So they'd still get it 5 times (3/7/11/15/19), but they'd be locked out of collecting other people's 4th level abilites (because there is no way in hell Sage is getting an ability before the class that owns it does...) and likely set their effective level with all abilites 1 lower so they can grab it a level sooner each time?

Bleh.

Yes, there is that -- and putting Cross Training at 4th is the best outcome -- but I think you could make a good case for reducing the pool of options in return for granting access to the pool sooner.

It's also part of the reason I really really dislike starting a game below 4th level. I know there are players out there who gravitate to support/backer types -- I used to play Defence back when I played Tribes (in part because I loved ganking folks with hidden laser turrets), but there comes a time when you just have to get out there and grab that flag for yourself. Similarly, having to wade through pure support levels until you get an ability that lets you shine on your own is grating to a fair few of the people I talk to about Crafty's classes trying to sell them on the system.

(though personally a species that long lived really should be starting out with extra Origin skills or interests).

Based on what exactly? I smell massive human-based-psychology assumption lurking about.

Eh, I smell a fair whiff of pro human bias myself. Assigning supreme adaptivity to humans as a balance mechanism as one thing, but denying some flavour of it to others because they aren't human is quite another.

Most fantasy sources have elves as being prettier and generally more knowledgable than humans either as a factor of their innate moral superiority or simply due to the osmosis of extreme longevity.

[Sletchman]

(though personally a species that long lived really should be starting out with extra Origin skills or interests).

Based on what exactly? I smell massive human-based-psychology assumption lurking about.

Eh, I smell a fair whiff of pro human bias myself. Assigning supreme adaptivity to humans as a balance mechanism as one thing, but denying some flavour of it to others because they aren't human is quite another.

Most fantasy sources have elves as being prettier and generally more knowledgable than humans either as a factor of their innate moral superiority or simply due to the osmosis of extreme longevity.

I've always thought of elves as the type of people that would get hyper obsessed about a subject and work towards knowing everything about it, rather then flitting about from one thing to the other over a few hundred years.  Just my $0.02 of course.

[Mister Andersen]

There's that approach too, but neither are particularly well supported by the elf talent as written.

[Morgenstern]

Eh, I smell a fair whiff of pro human bias myself.

Not at all. Extra origin skills, interests, what have you for long lived races is a defensible choice and a mechanic not unique to humans. In fact I do believe I see the like on drakes. What I question is the assumption that its appropriate/required.

[MilitiaJim]

I've always thought of elves as the type of people that would get hyper obsessed about a subject and work towards knowing everything about it, rather then flitting about from one thing to the other over a few hundred years.  Just my $0.02 of course.

I always thought they were a bit of both.  Some elves would know one subject in and out, and some would know a little bit about everything.

[Sletchman]

I've always thought of elves as the type of people that would get hyper obsessed about a subject and work towards knowing everything about it, rather then flitting about from one thing to the other over a few hundred years.  Just my $0.02 of course.

I always thought they were a bit of both.  Some elves would know one subject in and out, and some would know a little bit about everything.

[sarcasm]Yeah but those latter elves are what we call "NPC's" with their "Competance" score.   [/sarcasm]

All jokes aside it seems to be a setting by setting thing, with a few settings having both the vast sums of knowledge elves [which in FantasyCraft probably have the Seer class, and perhaps Well Rounded to compliment it] and the specialists, who do whats relevant I guess, with appropiate species feats to avoid action die penalties.  For what its worth my personal setting has elves as "focused to the point of obsession", of course some will be obsessed with knowing as many knew and different things as possible.

[Adal]

2. As written, unlike when choosing Origin skills, a Sage could gain ranks in Spellcasting through BoE.  This supports what you said earlier.  While this doesn't necessarily give him "Caster Levels", it allows him to use Scrolls and take levels in the Rune Knight class or any future Expert classes that require Spellcasting ranks.  Taking Cross-Class: Circle of Power I at level 4 right before taking Rune Knight at 5 gives them a head start that other non-Mage classes don't get when entering that class.

I am interested in this assertion. The Spellcasting skill states that you need a casting level of 1 to take ranks in it. However, this idea is awesome and I like the idea of a caster with slower progression but more even stats.

[Daedalus]

2. As written, unlike when choosing Origin skills, a Sage could gain ranks in Spellcasting through BoE.  This supports what you said earlier.  While this doesn't necessarily give him "Caster Levels", it allows him to use Scrolls and take levels in the Rune Knight class or any future Expert classes that require Spellcasting ranks.  Taking Cross-Class: Circle of Power I at level 4 right before taking Rune Knight at 5 gives them a head start that other non-Mage classes don't get when entering that class.

I am interested in this assertion. The Spellcasting skill states that you need a casting level of 1 to take ranks in it. However, this idea is awesome and I like the idea of a caster with slower progression but more even stats.

It's funny that you mentioned it.  I went back to look at the other spell casting classes (Priest and the Experts) and only the Alchemist has Spellcasting as a class skill, so really the only way to become a Rune Knight RAW is through the Mage class or taking Alchemist first.  Giving Sages the ability to read scrolls at caster level 4 and eventually take levels in Rune Knight doesn't seem like it's game-wrecking to me, but a savvy Sage may take full advantage to test your patience.
The only problem I foresee with choosing Specllcasting through BoE is that the character could skip taking Subtle and Quick to Anger and go straight into Circle of Power I, which seems to be against the design philosophy, since Subtle is on the list.  
But RAW, Subtle and Quick to Anger doesn't give you a Casting Level(unless it defaults to 4 automatically, p. 48) and therefore doesn't give you access to spell knowledge, (p. 110) making it only useful for scroll use and knowledge synergy.

So I guess this has turned into a question for the Crafty Guys: Does Subtle and Quick to Anger give a Sage a Caster Level?  If so, then what level of a caster?  If not, is the Circle of Power I feature only for Mages who multiclass into Sage?

[Number Three]

So I guess this has turned into a question for the Crafty Guys: Does Subtle and Quick to Anger give a Sage a Caster Level?  If so, then what level of a caster?  If not, is the Circle of Power I feature only for Mages who multiclass into Sage?

I know they answered this one, but I had to use Mr. Anderson's masterlist to find the proof.

When a cross-trained ability uses Class or Casting Level to determine its effect, it is considered to be 4.

Emphasis mine.  Sage's can cast cantrips, and it's a valid path to Rune Knight.

As for buying ranks in Spellcasting, at my table, I'd rule that you need a class ability that explicitly states you can buy it.  FYI, I 'm coming from Spycraft, where Spellcasting is a Power.  It looks like a Skill, acts like a Skill, and quacks like a Skill, but is not, in fact, a Skill.

[Morgenstern]

I always thought they were a bit of both.  Some elves would know one subject in and out, and some would know a little bit about everything.

To my thinking that would best be handled by leaving it to the individual character's choice of Specialties... Which is the situation we have now.