Assassin Core Ability and Feat BAB Prereqs

[Tegyrius]

Okay, I'm not really getting the intent here:

1.  The Assassin's core ability sets his BAB equal to his level for purposes of feat prerequisites, with some caveats.

2.  No feat in any combat tree has a BAB prerequisite.  As a matter of fact, I have yet to find any feat with a BAB prereq.

I've been scratching my head over #2 for a while, but I figured it was a feature rather than a bug until I read the Assassin closely.  Now... not so sure.  Any thoughts?

- C.

[Wolverine]

I've been scratching my head over #2 for a while, but I figured it was a feature rather than a bug until I read the Assassin closely.  Now... not so sure.  Any thoughts?

I'm guessing that, like a couple of other abilities elsewhere in the book (like the Vanguard's Basic Combat Expert), it's future-proofing. The Assassin stills gets the improved BAB when attacking Special NPCs, so it isn't a totally wasted ability at this time.

[Crafty_Alex]

It's all future proofing. Better to prep here rather than errata the ability later.

[Tegyrius]

Enh.  With all due respect, Alex, I'm not real fond of (or maybe I should say "comfortable with") that reasoning.  The core abilities of the core book's base classes shouldn't rely on future supplements to hit their full potential.  From the beginning back in SC1, core abilities were one of the system's major differentiators when held up against competing products, and they were both useful and consistently unique from Level 1 throughout a character's entire progression.  Several of the FC classes have core abilities that, to me, violate this ethos.

- C.

[Daedalus]

Enh.  With all due respect, Alex, I'm not real fond of (or maybe I should say "comfortable with") that reasoning.  The core abilities of the core book's base classes shouldn't rely on future supplements to hit their full potential.  From the beginning back in SC1, core abilities were one of the system's major differentiators when held up against competing products, and they were both useful and consistently unique from Level 1 throughout a character's entire progression.  Several of the FC classes have core abilities that, to me, violate this ethos.

- C.

The only core abilities I see in the book that seem to violate the aforementioned paradigm(to be fair, I haven't read SC) are these two:
Assassin's Heart Seeker: Because it's pretty useful but there was legitimate ambiguity around OP's question.

Sage's Breadth of Experience:
This bonus seems weak to me unless I'm misinterpreting it in some way.  Adding four MORE skills to your class list after Origin skills for a Sage makes it so that you need to have the highest possible Intelligence and/or spread yourself a little thin just to take advantage of it. An 18 Intelligence sage will always have those 8 extra skill points left over when choosing ranks beyond level maximum unless they're Enlightened or Prodigal, while feats like Talented and qualities like Paired Skills (X+Y) will provide far more skill points over a character's career than Breadth of Experience.

Most other Core abilities seem to come into play right away without strong dependence upon what the character's attributes/talents/specialties are.  Some require you to take certain feats in order to share them, but I hardly have complaints sharing feats with others that I took because they were worthwhile.  Don't get me wrong, Sage is my second favorite class after Priest, but it seems this ability lacks the oomph required to draw people into the class, which I desperately want someone to use in my game.

[Morgenstern]

From the beginning back in SC1, core abilities were one of the system's major differentiators when held up against competing products, and they were both useful and consistently unique from Level 1 throughout a character's entire progression.

You're saying that the assassin core ability isn't sufficiently useful as is? That if the ability to qualify for feats were removed, the remainder would be sub-par? I'm thinking a scaling +1 to +5 attack bonus vs. special characters is a pretty servicable core ability in support of the assassin's role as special character eliminator.

If not future proofing, the ability to use the max BAB for feats could also be useful when importing feats from other d20 sources, including Spycraft 2.0. It's more a statement of completeness in light that the character has two seperate BAB scores.

[mach1.9pants]

Me too the BAB bonus is pretty awesome against foes that will (probably) be harder to hit, special characters. It is a good ability.

[Tegyrius]

You're saying that the assassin core ability isn't sufficiently useful as is? That if the ability to qualify for feats were removed, the remainder would be sub-par? I'm thinking a scaling +1 to +5 attack bonus vs. special characters is a pretty servicable core ability in support of the assassin's role as special character eliminator.

I think it has the potential to be pretty disappointing if the GM and players (not just the assassin's player) can't contrive to make certain circumstances happen.  It's only useful in combat against a special character, with an average value (across all 20 levels) of +3.  Anyone else can get similar or better effects from just dropping action dice.

Additionally, it has multiple required triggering conditions: ([in combat] AND [against a special character]).  In any combat without a special character, it does nothing.  In any combat where the assassin is tied up with bodyguards, terrain, or other complications preventing him from getting attacks on the guy with a name, it does nothing.  In any non-combat interaction with a special character, it does nothing.

So, yeah... compared to double ADs on a specific type of roll in or out of combat, or team feat sharing in or out of combat, or re-rolls with class skills and chosen weapons in or out of combat, I'm afraid it does feel pretty sub-par.  Honestly, this whole thread was spawned by the items in my initial post that made me wonder if I'd found an errata issue in either this or the feat prereqs.

Daedalus: It's probably worth a separate thread (or retitling this one), but yeah, the Sage is also on my list of classes with core abilities that don't seem up to the challenge.  Also, I think the Lancer could do with some clarification - it's my favorite basic class and the direct heir to the Wheelman, but it's a bit ambiguous in just how useful it is.

- C.

[Deral]

This only somewhat adds to the value but remember, Tegyrius, that it gives BAB equal to career level, not assassin level. You could, after your first level of assassin, take 19 levels in a poor BAB class and still benefit when fighting special characters.

[spinningdice]

Its very useful for wacky builds, say Assasin/Mage/Sage/Keeper...

[Daedalus]

This only somewhat adds to the value but remember, Tegyrius, that it gives BAB equal to career level, not assassin level. You could, after your first level of assassin, take 19 levels in a poor BAB class and still benefit when fighting special characters.

Good catch there.  First level or two (I love Cold Read) in Assassin and then go crazy into any non-Soldier/Lancer class and not worry as much about missing special characters.  Brilliant!  You still whiff on Standard characters, but I find this very amusing and IC for most Assassins, especially when things don't go just as planned.

[Morgenstern]

You're saying that the assassin core ability isn't sufficiently useful as is? That if the ability to qualify for feats were removed, the remainder would be sub-par? I'm thinking a scaling +1 to +5 attack bonus vs. special characters is a pretty servicable core ability in support of the assassin's role as special character eliminator.

I think it has the potential to be pretty disappointing if the GM and players (not just the assassin's player) can't contrive to make certain circumstances happen.  It's only useful in combat against a special character, with an average value (across all 20 levels) of +3.  Anyone else can get similar or better effects from just dropping action dice.

It doesn't seem like a major contrivance for there to be special characters at the peak of the enemy's power structure or for an 'assassin' to be looking to resolve the situation through abrupt violence. In fact the absence of such scenarios is about on par with "oh, you're playng a soldier? Sorry. There won't be much combat in this campaign at all..." In otherwords letting a player be an assassin but rarely shine as one is kinda douche-baggy GMing.

The assassin's bonus is there for as many attacks as it takes, where as the only slighlty better average bonus from action dice at the same level has both a (very) limited number of uses, and is drawing for a pool you might very much want to use for other things, more damage and/or confirming crits not least among them. Plus, you cannot spend multiple action dice in most circumstances, and the assassin still has the option to do so which stacks with this always available benefit.

We evalutate its value differently. As a tool for consistent performance of the class' core  premise, it seems pretty strong to me. Among always active bonuses, an (eventual) +5 to every attack is massively good. With the added benefit that it allows various low BAB class mixes without impacting that core functionality at all.

[Desertpuma]

Consider Assassin/Priest or Assassin/Courtier as you look at the effectiveness of the Assassin's core ability .. A well-made Assassin/Courtier mix should scare the beejeezus out of you.

[Tegyrius]

It doesn't seem like a major contrivance for there to be special characters at the peak of the enemy's power structure or for an 'assassin' to be looking to resolve the situation through abrupt violence. In fact the absence of such scenarios is about on par with "oh, you're playng a soldier? Sorry. There won't be much combat in this campaign at all..." In otherwords letting a player be an assassin but rarely shine as one is kinda douche-baggy GMing.

I could buy that if the assassin were purely or even primarily a combat class.  However, of 16 class abilities (counting the core and every possible Masks option), only 7 are directly combat-related - 8 if your primary use of Intimidate is to Threaten.  A slight majority, counting the  combat/non-combat overlap in Quick on Your Feet, seem to be geared for, uh, social work.  Given the overall similarities in class abilities, my SC2 experience leads me to see the assassin as an adaptation of the faceman with combat as a secondary niche.  I'll admit this may be skewing my perceptions of him.

The assassin's bonus is there for as many attacks as it takes, where as the only slighlty better average bonus from action dice at the same level has both a (very) limited number of uses, and is drawing for a pool you might very much want to use for other things, more damage and/or confirming crits not least among them. Plus, you cannot spend multiple action dice in most circumstances, and the assassin still has the option to do so which stacks with this always available benefit.

Granted.  But, again, the core ability is only active at the intersection of the "in combat" and "opposing a special character" circles on the Venn diagram of scenes.  It may be a climactic circumstance, but it's still a limited one.

Now, I do see your point above about GM dickery.  However, I think there's an assumption at work here regarding the necessary conditions for completing an adventure: killing the guy with a name.  That's not always the optimum or even correct route, and any adventure in which the climactic showdown is social/dramatic rather than combative will flat-out shut down Heartseeker.  See below.

We evalutate its value differently. As a tool for consistent performance of the class' core  premise, it seems pretty strong to me. Among always active bonuses, an (eventual) +5 to every attack is massively good. With the added benefit that it allows various low BAB class mixes without impacting that core functionality at all.

Ah ha.  See, with all the social capabilities, I don't see the core premise of the class as "kill the bad guy" so much as "bring down the bad guy."  IMO, there should be more than one "correct" path to adventure completion, and most of the tables I'm at these days are just as satisfied with a dramatically appropriate delivery of justice that doesn't necessarily involve putting blood on the floor and hair on the walls.   

- C.

[Desertpuma]

Having that BAB for delivering subdual damage attacks can be more than handy