Fantasy Craft Talent Costs

[Blankbeard]

I thought I'd see about updating the wiki page on talents(http://www.crafty-games.com/node/180) to include the talent abilities from Mastercraft.  Or more likely, putting the equivalent page under fantasy craft.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure if the numbers have changed or if the values I've come up with are correct.   Nearly all of the FC traits have direct equivalents and for those I've simply used the value from the wiki.

I've removed the table and uploaded the spreadsheet I was working on.  Sheet 1 is all of the attributes and traits from the human talents.  Sheet 2 contains the species all of which are very rough and should not be trusted.  Sheet 3 has all of the human talents along with the costs from sheet 1.

Edit:  Everything is in the wiki:  http://www.crafty-games.com/node/871

Further updates will be to the spreadsheet and I'll post later in the thread instead of constantly editing this post.

So, do these values look reasonable?  

Edit:Changed Double Boost to 3, Added +2 Specific, reformatted the table
Edit 2: Removed the table, updated comments, added link to google docs with the new table.

[Agent 333]

Looks good. I might say that stacking multiple selectable options on one origin probably has a synergistic effect on costs, hence Gifted seeming awesome but coming out weak point wise. Perhaps, in this case, 2+2 = 5?

[aegis]

I don't know about the summations, but 4 for double boost? I wouldn't say that this ability is useless but it's definitely not worth 4 points to me. But I might underestimate this one ...

[Blankbeard]

Any of the numbers could be wrong.  I started out looking at the six "ability score" talents.  They all have a +2 to one ability, Double boost, and then two other abilities, except for Intelligent which has Split Decision.

Hardy has Thick Hide 2 and Unbreakable.  There are two traits in the wiki that are very similar, DR2 considered to be and stack with armor is very much like Thick Hide 2, except a bit better.  Unbreakable is Reduced attribute damage.  Both of these are 1 point traits, so I set Thick Hide 2 and Unbreakable the same.

+2 Specific isn't on the wiki.  +1 Specific is 0.5, +1 Any is 1.0, +2 Any is 3 points.  I initially set this to be 1 point, but that looks like a error.  Does 2 points seem more reasonable? 

Using the higher cost for +2 Con, the traits total to 4, leaving 3 for Double Boost. 

Wise, Strong, and the others all have traits that look like 1 point traits too, so the above works for them.  Split Decision is a stickler though.

[Agent 333]

Does making +2 Specific cost 2.5 make Split Decision work better, or does it just muck up the other stat talents?

[Blankbeard]

Well, Unpredictable has 3 benefits that are already in the wiki.  +1 Specific is 1 point, a specific bonus feat is 2, and an extra proficiency is 1.  That totals 4, so Split Decision should be the rest.  so 2-3 is the range depending on just how many points unpredictable is built off from.

Making +2 Specific cost 2.5 would make Agile, Charismatic, Intelligent, Strong, Hardy, and Wise cost 7.5 unless Double boost was 2.5 as well.  Which might work.  Seeing how big a deal Double Boost is requires play, which I really can't do right now (I'm learning Craft(Pharmacy) as my dayjob.)  Since both occur only in the ability traits, you can shuffle points between them without affecting the math.  It's hard to know which is right.

Maybe the best idea is to assume that Unpredictable is built off 6 points and  leave Split Decision at 2.  I'm pretty convinced that you're right about Gifted.  On the plus side, the Ogre and Giant species work out to 7 with what's in the wiki and the Dwarf does too if Iron Gut is .5 and the banned checks are -0.5.  The Goblin uses only items in the wiki and ends up at 5.5.  I haven't looked at the other races yet, except to note that virtually everything about the Unborn has a negative cost.  Construct is as expensive as it is beefy, which is good.

[Agent 333]

The Crafty Crew may have decided that some items from the Wiki were over/under-costed in a MasterCraft environment compared to their Spycraft counterparts, so we cannot rule out those things changing. Especially if it makes Goblins come out so weak (I mean, they seemed kinda gimped compared to some other races, but not THAT bad).

[Foghorn]

Where would you change the costs of the Goblin abilities, though? The costs seem to match up when compared to other Talents with those abilities.

[Blankbeard]

That's very true, Agent333.  If the numbers have changed, then all bets are off.  Here's what I came up with for Goblins:

Small	0.5
Agile Defense	1
Ambush Basics	2
Low Light Vision	0.5
Tenacious Spirit	2
+2 Str, -2 Cha	1
Iconic Classes	-1
Light Sensitive	-0.5

Unless I missed a trait, that's 5.5 points.  Giving them a +2 Dex in addition would raise the attribute cost to 2.5, which makes them a 7 point talent.  If they really are weak, that might help them out.

I roughed out costs for all of the rest of the races except Drakes but there are more unique abilities.  In those cases, it's easy to make the numbers work but hard to tell if they're right.

[MugMug]

+2 Specific isn't on the wiki.  +1 Specific is 0.5, +1 Any is 1.0, +2 Any is 3 points.  I initially set this to be 1 point, but that looks like a error.  Does 2 points seem more reasonable? 

Ignoring any context (i.e. how it affects other numbers) I'd go with a value of 1.5. That maintains the same cost ratio for specific/any (0.5-to-1), and for +1/+2 (1-to-3).

Walter

[Foghorn]

I was actually thinking of giving goblins a bite attack if it does turn out that they're a little under

[MugMug]

I was actually thinking of giving goblins a bite attack if it does turn out that they're a little under

With the bleed upgrade, for "savage barbs, supernatural filth, or other nasty surprises?"

Walter

[Blankbeard]

Ignoring any context (i.e. how it affects other numbers) I'd go with a value of 1.5. That maintains the same cost ratio for specific/any (0.5-to-1), and for +1/+2 (1-to-3).

Walter

Since Double Boost and +2 Specific are always together in the published talents, that would make +2 Specific 1.5 and Double Boost 3.5.  Does that sound ok?  Earlier, aegis thought 4 was too high.

Has anyone seen Double boost in a character yet?  How powerful an ability does it turn out to be?  It's not as good as the core abilities that let you spend 1 and roll 2 dice, but it's pretty good. 

[Foghorn]

I was actually thinking of giving goblins a bite attack if it does turn out that they're a little under

With the bleed upgrade, for "savage barbs, supernatural filth, or other nasty surprises?"

Walter

And then a Species feat that adds the poisonous quality for aforementioned supernatural filth...I like it. Even if it turns out Goblin is already balanced as-is, I'm definitely writing some kind of Festering Bite feat for the little guys.

[Morgenstern]

Out of the 25 human talents, 18 of them sum to 7 using these values.  Here are the exceptions:
Adaptable (Grace Under Pressure-4, Inquisitive Mind-1, Origin Skill(2)-1.5) sums to 6.5
Crusading (Requirement-0, Attributes-1.5, Crunch-1, Bonus Feat-2, Higher Calling-1.5, Sterner Stuff-1) sums to 7 but I am unsure if I've guessed right.  3 of its traits are unique to the talent.
Educated (Attributes-1, Broad Learning-0.5, If I recall-2, Linguist-0.5, Slow and Steady-2.5) is 6.5
Gifted (Attributes-1.5, Bonus Feat-2, Limited Proficiencies-(-0.5), Origin Skill-1, Sharp Mind-2) sums to 6.  This worries me because Gifted is a pretty attractive talent.  Maybe it's attractive enough not to matter.  Maybe my numbers are wrong.
Intelligent (Attributes-1, Double Boost-4, Split Decision-errr) depends on the value of Split Decision.  2 works here, but see Unpredictable
Unpredictable (Attributes-0.5, Bonus Feat-2, Extra Trick-1, Split Decision)  3.5 works here.
Vigilant (Attributes-1, Always Ready-2, Enlightened Skill-1, Bonus Feat-2) is 6

So, do these values look reasonable?

Attributes are much more expsnsive on Specialties than on Talents/Species. Feats are much more expensive on Talents/Species than they are on Specialties.

2 origin skills:  2
Broad learning: 1
Linguist: 1
Slow and steady: 2

See if that cleans up your math. ALL of them are exactly 7.