Too many Prizes: What do I tell my players?

[Crafty_Pat]

You are, of course, free to ignore or adjust any rule. Tread carefully, however, as contrary to popular opinion gear is a balancing factor in play - potentially more so than any game rule. Even with Charm and Essence limitations in place, the versatility and utility of Prizes make them potentially game-breakingly powerful, especially at high levels. Including them without limit is a great way to kick open that other discussion we aren't seeing yet: "Why can't I challenge my players anymore?"

[luzbel]

You can use the Monty Haul option or explain to players they are not playing d&d. When we play d&d they keep all the stuff, till the most stupid things, but when we played earthdawn they no complain about the few (very few) magic items they had.
When you play d&d you have few character options, sometimes you level up and get nothing, but in spycraft you have many options, the career levels, the feats, the craft, downtime, the holdings (i love that rules), etc. 
When i played bushido, people were busy with downtime, titles and social power and they forget the magic items.
I think spycraft is for living the game world like a real life, you know the people around, have a home, followers, a name to conquest; you have few magic items but all of them have a name and a history. In forgotten realms you have one +3 sword, +1 flaming sword, etc, all ready. In birthright setting or ravenloft you have only one +1 sword but it have a big history.
I wait you understand the idea(too text for my english)

[Krensky]

Push them away from D&D. Gear is not central to their power and abilities. They must, hook or by crook, learn that any Prize not acquired through a feat or other character option is impermanent and can be taken from them at any time. Once they understand this, they will hold onto to fewer things.

[Adal]

It seems to me that the heavy hand is only going to be a problem in this instance. However, why is "It's the rules" not an answer? Why doesn't the enemy mage use his casting level as a base attack bonus? Why doesn't the enemy warlord have limitless minions that don't give you xp? The rules are the rules; you don't have to lay down the law like it's a ton of bricks mixed with napalm, but they function to facilitate fair and fun play. If the rule inhibits the fun to much, to hell with the fair and ignore the rule, but it seems to me that trying it the way it was designed would be a good first step towards understanding why it's fair (and maybe fun. Some of the ideas here seem like great plot-hooks).

That said, I recall that in D&D conjuration spells interfere with each other when there are too many together. Heroic souls (remember, PCs are mechanically, demonstrably different from standard characters) are only able to take so much; some can take more than others and it seems to be in proportion to his dedication to a particular aspect of life (adventuring straight, a nice life, politics, etc.). It feels bad to me, but it could work if your players are trying to grind you down with complaints.

[TheAuldGrump]

The easiest way is to keep Prizes fairly rare to begin with.Other explanations can include the PCs only being able to keep X number of magic items 'active', only being able to maintain so many snitches or other contacts, etc.. And sometimes the castle burns down, falls over, then sinks into the swamp. But make the Prizes you do give them worthwhile.

Keep the Prizes that you allow them to gather varied - not everybody is going to have a magic weapon, not every suit of armor glows in the dark, etc.. To make up for a perceived lack you can be generous with consumables - items that get used up. Elixirs, Scrolls,

Make sure that they realize that their characters are busy during Downtime, they make money, possibly fielding offscreen jobs, selling stuff off, getting robbed, living life, large but off stage.

You may also want to take a look at The Big Score, and consider alternative ways of handling Gear.

The Auld Grump

[Daedalus]

Also the argument of quality vs. quantity is very important.  People who are used to D&D are used to haveing a high quantity of items but they didn't do much for you until you got to staves...aye...  If you use the "greater magic items" quality, trinkets can have all kinds of qualities, but this will increase the attention to focus on items instead of people, which I think is a cornerstone of good Role-playing.  Also, I think a personal lieutenant or sentient mount could occasionally use a cool toy.

Or for an approach specific to magic items, how about saying magic items need to draw some of their power from the person wielding/using them, and a person's soul can only power so much at any time, all excess items becoming useless. As they adventure more (spend rep on renown) their bodies grow accustomed to being laden with magic items they can power more.

I like this too.  I remember an old fluff for rings in D&D that limited it to one per hand because the magic fields disrupted each other or something like that.  In the default setting, magic is supposed to be something special, and you could establish an appropriate metaphysic like the one above.

[MugMug]

However, why is "It's the rules" not an answer?

"It's the rules" is rarely a good answer. First, the rules as printed are really just guidelines -- the whole "Rule 0" thing. Second, most GMs houserule aspects of the game, undermining by their own actions the "it's the rules" concept.

"This is how I would like to run the game" (or "it's my rule") is a much better answer. The GM and players collaborate to create fun. Ultimately, however, the GM defines the rules of the game being played (keeping in mind the players' ability to seek fun elsewhere). Decent players will respect that (which doesn't prevent them from trying to negotiate for an aspect of play they prefer).

Walter

[Glacialis]

*** TIME OUT ***

Sorry, this is going in a direction I hadn't intended.

I do not disagree with this mechanic. I like it. I like it very much.

I'm trying to provide an in character explanation for how this mechanic manifests.

Or for an approach specific to magic items, how about saying magic items need to draw some of their power from the person wielding/using them, and a person's soul can only power so much at any time, all excess items becoming useless. As they adventure more (spend rep on renown) their bodies grow accustomed to being laden with magic items they can power more.

Melikey.

That said, I recall that in D&D conjuration spells interfere with each other when there are too many together. Heroic souls (remember, PCs are mechanically, demonstrably different from standard characters) are only able to take so much; some can take more than others and it seems to be in proportion to his dedication to a particular aspect of life (adventuring straight, a nice life, politics, etc.). It feels bad to me, but it could work if your players are trying to grind you down with complaints.

Food for thought.

The easiest way is to keep Prizes fairly rare to begin with.Other explanations can include the PCs only being able to keep X number of magic items 'active', only being able to maintain so many snitches or other contacts, etc.. And sometimes the castle burns down, falls over, then sinks into the swamp. But make the Prizes you do give them worthwhile.

Keep the Prizes that you allow them to gather varied - not everybody is going to have a magic weapon, not every suit of armor glows in the dark, etc.. To make up for a perceived lack you can be generous with consumables - items that get used up. Elixirs, Scrolls,

Make sure that they realize that their characters are busy during Downtime, they make money, possibly fielding offscreen jobs, selling stuff off, getting robbed, living life, large but off stage.

You may also want to take a look at The Big Score, and consider alternative ways of handling Gear.

The Auld Grump

Om nom nom...more food. I'll check out The Big Score, hadn't thought about that.


For anyone familiar with the Midnight setting: covenant items. They had powers that unlocked at certain character levels, and the text encouraged the GM to make each item/power unique. That's the way I prefer to approach magic items: very unique, with a rich history and personally linked to the PC. FC encourages this, and I appreciate it.

Fantasy Craft is not a setting, it is the framework upon which a GM may build legends. I always try to find a way to represent mechanics in the game world so that the player characters don't have to resort to metagame terms to talk about the world they live in.

[Daedalus]

The vault upgrade for the Holding also has a space for "up to 1,000 lbs. of gear, Prizes, and other items"  This could be a place where Auldgrump's idea of "inactive" prizes comes into play without them (easily) being stolen, since characters loaded down with magical equipment seem to be marks for common street thieves with especially high Dexterity modifiers... 
Also, in terms of human prizes like contacts and favors and to an extent holdings, since they can be upgraded typically through expending more Reputation on them. 
Maybe you could do the same with magic prizes, allowing characters to invest their metaphysical power into improving them, or allowing crafters with charm/essence feats to invest their power for them.  For example, already in RAW, artifacts can be upgraded: "At any time when a character’s Career level is higher than his artifact’s level, he may spend Reputation to increase the artifact’s level to match his own. This costs Reputation equal to the character’s Career Level × 2." 
If you estimate that artifacts are about twice as powerful as normal magic items (I do for sake of example but it's not always true) then magic items could be upgraded for a cost of the Character's Career level in Reputation, once again emphasizing quality.

[Bill Whitmore]

You could also make it so that ALL prizes require upkeep in both time and money, usually handled in downtime.  This upkeep could be gifts and coin to maintain connections for contacts and favors; wages and maintenance on holdings and staff; expensive oils, ointments and treatments to keep magic items working at peak efficiency.

Now let me make clear what I am trying to imply here, the upkeep on a magic item is comparable to that of holdings like a fully staffed castle.

As you raise your renown you have more assets available to handle these costs.  People naturally want to be known as allies of powerful people.  Nobles, lords, populace, followers, mages and merchants all provide services more cheaply to well known people, either because they believe in the cause or they want their equipment and services to become known and associated with famous people.

If players want to have more prizes than they have slots allotted, go ahead and let them, just make sure it is incredibly expensive without the associated support network.  I would start at about 1,000* coin per adventure per extra prize and go up from there, or perhaps allow an expenditure of reputation to get the resources required per adventure .  For permanent use, you really should just raise renown.

*This amount is completely arbitrary.  If you were going to do this with any consistency you would want a better thought out number here.  Ultimately, however, this cost should HURT, not just be an inconvenience.

[MugMug]

*** TIME OUT ***

Sorry, this is going in a direction I hadn't intended.

Meh, that's okay. It may have been your original post, but it's our collective forum. I have found the discussion to be worth reading so far.

Walter

[Glacialis]

The Big Score, sidebar on p13. The GM tips on p13-14 are also very useful, but the sidebar, that big blue thing right there, that's what I'm looking for. To quote a portion of it:

Some may ask, then, why characters can still only keep a limited amount of gear. Ultimately, the reasons are game balance and bookkeeping. We feel that the game plays best with more of the first and less of the second. This doesn’t really address the core issue, though, which is how
to justify the limit within the setting.

I'd quote more because it's pure gold, but I highly encourage everyone to go pick this up. Srsly.

Now I need to go look up what classes and feats boost Lifestyle in FC. Hmm....

[Rhishisikk]

Well, if we're going to talk about alternate systems, try a combination of Earthdawn and Birthright.  Magic items only work for characters who invest a portion of their 'aura' (which grows with character level) into them.  Minor items require almost no investment.

Likewise, in the manner of Arthurian lands, holdings do well only when their 'bonded' ruler is.  In an unbonded land, crops are over-run by weeds and plagues, cities become dour and desolate, and all manner of monsters are drawn like iron filings to a lodestone.  Kalamar provides a sample of how this could also help the character. 

[MugMug]

Except The Big Score is only kinda a different system, and only by the slimmest of technical margins.

Walter

[Crafty_Alex]

Here's my general advice, Glacialis, is if you are worried about players hitting the Prize limit too fast (some of this is repeated from above, mainly because some other folks else thinks along the same lines as me):

1) As a GM, you should first start thinking about how you grant Prizes. D&D expects you to grant what we would call Prizes (+1 daggers, etc) on an almost per-encounter basis - something that the design team of FC found both silly and frankly devaluing to a character and the player's investment in the choices he makes with that character (why have a good BAB if you can overcome that deficit with a weapon you find in the next fight?). Prizes in Fantasy Craft are *PRIZES* - items of wonder, towering keeps, exclusive favors and fast friends that should seem special and rare to the characters lucky enough to find them. If you want to give a party improved weapons, you can always drop upgraded gear and weapons - an Elf-crafted sword with the armor piercing and keen 4 upgrades is easily as good as a +3 sword from that other game and takes no valuable Prize slots Reframing your thinking to an FC mindset in this case will save you and your players headaches.

2) Because they are so special, Prizes often require investments - when you buy a Prize, you do so by investing Reputation in it. Daedalus and Bill W. talked about the possibility of upkeep, and the Reputation cost represents that sort of upkeep in terms of spending goodwill and other possibilities for your money/most valuable asset - your good name.

3) If none of these work for your world, change the rules! The Monty Haul campaign quality is there for *exactly* this reason. Alternatively, you could "combine" magic items by awarding fewer and activating the Greater and/or Flexible Magic Items qualities to make each magic item encompass fewer slots while granting greater net effects.  If you still want to award more Prizes than a PC can have, also consider Adventure Insurance where players get a refund of 1/2 an item's Rep value when they give it up - that should soften the blow as well.

4) The Prize limit is indeed there to prevent needless proliferation of items, but players can "get around it" through increasing their Renown. Not only do they get a title and recognition and access to favors, they are trusted by their communities to be carrying the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear bomb. In a traditional D&D style game, the PCs will likely be finding thier treasures, meaning their Rep is freed up for increasing their Renown and thus the amount of loot they can have. Feel free to ignore this restriction, but understand that doing so does devalue Renown as a tool and make it an inferior option compared to other (now limitless) Prizes.