Warhammer RP goes 4ed Style

[Aragathor]

Oh, so you are one of those "purists" who need to have the "actual" book?

I would like you to not get personal here, I do not judge your preference and I expect the same from you.

Who ever said the pdfs were "crappy"so they would print poorly? You've seen them or you are just generalizing/speaking out of prejudice?

I have seen original books and PDF-to-print versions done by a local copyshop which also prints academic books. There was a difference.
But nowhere did I say that PDFs were "crappy" or anything similar.

There's a market, no one denied it. But when it's speculator-driven, it can get shoved up their greedy arses, really. That's one of the things I hate about "collector" snobs... They will simply go for the "must have it" impulse and all reason be damned to hell.

Maybe for WHFRP books, there's no collector controlled thing for oWoD books. And I have almost 10 years of experience buying them.

If any of you HAVE to own the PRINTED book, caveat emptor. People out there will gut you for it. If you want to own the INFORMATION for use in YOUR GAMES, then people... please refrain from feeding greedy, cheeky monkeys and get your pdfs. Better price for exactly the SAME load of information (with the added plus of free, minor updates when available) and NONE of the weight.

I would like to point out that this statement insults many honest booksellers who do not rip people off. I know a few RPG traders who have honest prices and are very up-front with the buyer.
Maybe you've had some bad experiences but please refrain from stating that it's the definite truth.

Rain can still ruin your reading pleasure, mind.

Well laptops aren't so water-friendly either.

Or SHILL BIDDING in many cases. It's a shame, really, but it does happen a lot with "collectable" stuff and GW/Black Library/Citadel seems to attract the most seedy types to peddle their wares, and go on to manipulate both the demand and the perceived price so they "don't loose" on the deal. If they fail, they refuse to sell by ending the bid early or "absorbing the shock" by faking the sale and paying the fees (now harder to do thanks to the idiotic fees charged by ebay), waiting a bit and relisting the item a few days later with a higher starting bid or an outrageous "shipping & handling" charge.

That's why if I want a second-hand book I go to Amazon, mostly. Sure, some prices are ridiculous but they are SET prices, not ones that could escalate absurdly "due to gen pop's interest".

Again it's a case of GW-stuff vs. the rest of the world. Besides there are many venues like Noble Knight or Dragon's Trove which sell books at a fair price. And Amazon has various prices, recently I've bought a rare book for the standard price even though it was almost impossible to get otherwise.

[Number Three]

But nowhere did I say that PDFs were "crappy" or anything similar.

For the record, I was the one who stated that scanned doc PDFs weren't were the bother.  I'll concede that this is my opinion, related to the fact that the lack of resolution makes them impossible for me to read at length, and the files sizes are bloated monstrosities compared to OEF.  I believe it's selling your customer a substandard product in hopes of making it too inconvenient for pirates.  This never works, and the logic is frankly laughable.

[Txabier_Arrizotegui]

Oh, so you are one of those "purists" who need to have the "actual" book?

I would like you to not get personal here, I do not judge your preference and I expect the same from you.

What's my preference? I own many books in both formats, hundreds printed and a few more as PDFs/OEFs. I wasn't judging you, I was just wondering as to why you read like you have little inclination to electronic formats. My tone wasn't judgemental, but genuinely curious if blunt.  Please accept my apologies for the confussion.

Maybe for WHFRP books, there's no collector controlled thing for oWoD books. And I have almost 10 years of experience buying them.

So? I've now got 19 years of "oWoD experience", but it serves us not in this thread. You only used them to illustrate a point and the topic does not revolve around them but WHFRP. Mind you, your answer indeed could allow me to assume you talk out of prejudice/personal past (and seemingly bad) experience.

I would like to point out that this statement insults many honest booksellers who do not rip people off. I know a few RPG traders who have honest prices and are very up-front with the buyer.

No, it does not, you seem to be trying to misconstrue it to do so. That's why I wrote "caveat emptor" (buyer beware). Not all of the sellers will try to gut buyers, but those you mention about commanding hefty prices do, and those were the ones I was referring to.

Maybe you've had some bad experiences but please refrain from stating that it's the definite truth.

Oh, so I'm stating something as if it was the ONLY truth? C'mon. Grow a thicker skin, really. Refrain from trying to paint people with different views as one with agendas, narrow views, past bad experiences, whatever, why don't you? I was just commenting on the topic, the same as you. Seems to me  that you are putting things in"good" and "bad" boxes when there's no need or practical use for it.

Among other things, I'm a bibliophile with quite a big collection (of which RPG games are but a small fraction) and I know certain thing about book pricing that go beyond the mere "demand" factor. I'm sorry to inform you not one book in our hobby, no matter how rare needs to cost over a hundred bucks.

I never had bad experiences beacuse I don't fall for these all too common but not completely founded arguments about the perceived price, demand and print runs of "mere" rpgs.

Rain can still ruin your reading pleasure, mind.

Well laptops aren't so water-friendly either.

That's what I meant! See how you are misrepresenting my statements by view literal and partial to just YOUR interpretation of what I wrote? Do you really need emoticons to detect sarcasm? If so, I will use them more often. Just so we avoid percieved offenses/narrow-mindedness.

Again it's a case of GW-stuff vs. the rest of the world.

No, it really wasn't, I mentioned them because they were pertinent/related to this thread and a mere examples of one of MANY items/goods that are popular, have demand and thus, attract many types of traders.

Besides there are many venues like Noble Knight or Dragon's Trove which sell books at a fair price.

Noble Knight has absurd shipping charges for "overseas" customers, and I once, years ago, I tried with Dragon Trove but decided not to because of their outrageous S&H fees before the mailing got so expensive, but I'll grant you that they indeed have reasonable prices for their wares, and great opportunities/handycaps for their U.S. customers.

And Amazon has various prices, recently I've bought a rare book for the standard price even though it was almost impossible to get otherwise.

That's what I am talking about. Would you say this seller was a fool because there was no mark-up on his offering even though it was "rare"? By the way, I assume by that you mean "scarce" for a rare book has only a few tens of copies in existance, but anyway... If we are still talking about rpg related materials, my guess is you got a book of which several thousand copies were made even when the distribution might have not been good enough or the demand was big enough to make it difficult to obtain.

It's a good thing you got it a the standrad price and can see there are options out there which are not ebay or "rare book traders" who tend to inflate prices without sense, reason or sane justification.

Sure, finding such "deals" (or "more real" prices) isn't easy, but it's all part of the hunt if you MUST own a printed copy of a book. Which, when it deals with RPG books, very few enter that category if you only want them for the information to use in your games and can have OEFs. Heck, now that we can see the books first and decide they are so innovative (Spycraft), so useful (FantasyCraft), so fun (Mustants&Materminds) or just are objects of sheer beauty (Mouseguard), or not... it just makes it easier for all of us to buy them in print later, keep them at home of our "Favourites" shelf or get them all dogeared with use. Or use our portables  in our gaming session while still having the book in question in two versions.

All I meant to say is: please don't get fooled by the "rarity" of certain rpg books and help drive the speculator-market. You got options and printed book don't "beat" electronic ones. It's maybe that you just prefer them, that's all.

Then again, if you are a collector or a "completist" you should be prepared to hunt hard or be willing to get your wallet chomped.

[glimmerrat]

Anyone else think this is getting a little unpleasant? I've never seen a thread go like this on the Crafty boards before.

[Txabier_Arrizotegui]

Anyone else think this is getting a little unpleasant? I've never seen a thread go like this on the Crafty boards before.

Why? Just because you are probably loading the thread with a tone that might not be there? I'm being blunt, if you will, but I don't believe I'm offending anyone nor do I intend to. Telling someone he/she might have prejudice against certain things is not offensive. Answering to what someone says point by point is not fighting... If this were to be discussed in person, I would most probably have offered my companios something to drink or a few munchies.

This is an exchange of opinions and internetland tends to be viewed as the place of flames every time two or more people disagree on something. While Aragathor and me might not see things the same, I seriously doubt any of us is taking offense.

But there, I said my peace.

For the record, I was the one who stated that scanned doc PDFs weren't were the bother.  I'll concede that this is my opinion, related to the fact that the lack of resolution makes them impossible for me to read at length, and the files sizes are bloated monstrosities compared to OEF.  I believe it's selling your customer a substandard product in hopes of making it too inconvenient for pirates.  This never works, and the logic is frankly laughable.

Yes, it is, and that's why things are changing. Nowadays even some of the scans are being reworked/made more size-efficient by many. Also the pricing  is becoming more and more enticing to people "on a budget", so they can find a more than a few files at prices they can afford.

Still, some files' prices are rather nutty. I mean 29.99 printed or 25.99 as a download? This is certainly a problem with the pricing systems the company has, but hey! Some e-books are kind of worth it, especially if you would need to have a 600-page monster shipped and pay taxes after UPS pulls it's import duties scam on you.

Let me add that this is creating a rather false impression that the infor contained within a book is clearly THAT expensive... I am not berating the people's work, mind, just pointing out that maybe the factoring is a wee bit wrong, unless they really want you to prefer the printed book.

If I see that a file is 50% off the printed version's price, then to me that's about the fair and exact price and would no doubt buy the thing.

Another plus of OEF-only stuff is that it usually is meant for the GMs to reduce the impact on our collective wallets, and is a way to secure enough sales to make the effort profitable.

Let it be said, I love my printed books, but I am glad we have the electronic option as well.

[samsimilian]

Anyone else think this is getting a little unpleasant? I've never seen a thread go like this on the Crafty boards before.

agree, i do

[Desertpuma]

Glimmerrat is correct IMNSHO.

While you may be blunt in your statements and not intending to create a hostile tone, you are creating a hostile tone. No one who has read this thread would refute you feel strongly about the issue but the tone your taking establishing your viewpoint is more aggressive than you realize.

Flame wars & trolls are not created when two people disagree on the net nor when dissenting opinions have a discussion and then are many examples on these forums to prove point.

I think Number Three has a valid statement as well. You may rail against the S&H charges or the "import duties scam" by UPS by consider that some or most of those charges are because of governments and the agreements between them regarding tariffs & import taxes. The money from those taxes goes to the government and not to the shipper, recipient or the guy actually carrying the product. Ranting about the shipping costs really has no bearing on this discussion when it is not as much a corporate move as a government issue. If you have such strong feelings about shipping issues & pricing due to government tariffs, talk to your government.

As for the actual topic about pdfs vs hardcopy, I like to have both depending where I'm playing and traveling. Going to Con more than a hour driving distance, chances are pdfs will definitely be involved. Playing within that hour driving distance, I'll either bring both or the hardbound.

As for GW & Warhammer: GW has always raked their hardcore fanbase over the coals pricing wise because they'll pay it, especially with minatures. If a friend of mine asked me to play in a Warhammer FRP because he prefers that system, I'll insist on the previous edition.

[glimmerrat]

Why? Just because you are probably loading the thread with a tone that might not be there?

I didn't realise I was being obtuse, but this statement in itself is a little aggressive. I realise you are quite calm but it really doesn't read that way.

Apologies if my observation caused offense...

[Txabier_Arrizotegui]

No, no. It didn't!

I will try to work a lot more on how I express things so you don't think I'm ranting or attacking people, and would like to offer my apologies to all who felt I was being hostile. For that, I really am truly sorry.

To sum it up: the new WHF "role play" is nothing but a boardgame pretending to be something else by assigning players their role and given them "special dice".

The last "lead by the nose" rpg I read/knew of was Indiana Jones' where players were literally forced into the roles of Indy's assistants. This new incarnation of WHFRP sounds just as fun but with glossy cardboard, which is way cheap to produce but priced like it's not.  

This is another Mutant Chronicles on the making.

[glimmerrat]

I think the problem with the web is that you don't hear tone of voice or see facial expression or body language, thus it can be hard to read a person's intentions.

[ThunderMonkey]

I think the problem with the web is that you don't hear tone of voice or see facial expression or body language, thus it can be hard to read a person's intentions.

That's why sarcasm tends to fail in some forums.

[MilitiaJim]

That's why sarcasm tends to fail in some forums.

And why we make up tags like </sarcasm> to point out the tone that is missing.

I am one who was sadly disappointed by the collectible nature of 3ed Warzone.  Really too bad Target folded right after their miniatures started getting good.   

[Gentry]

I look at my Brotherhood Elite squads sometimes, and it makes me sad.

[Crafty_Pat]

Thanks for bringing this back from the brink on your own, gentlemen. We're here if things get dicey but for now, please continue with your (measured) WHFRP and/or print-vs-PDF discussions.

[Desertpuma]

This is why we are one of the best game forums on the net. We graciously police our own so the Admins don't have to.