Now that FC is out the door...

[Crafty_Alex]

I'll take your word for it if you wouldn't mind publishing your unit sales numbers of FC vs. Spycraft 2nd Edition 6 months from now once "opening day" hype has worn down.

Sorry, but like any other business organization, we will not post our sales numbers because a) we're very uncomfortable doing so and more importantly b) context matters, and people outside the company don't have that.

I know FantasyCraft is a decent product, but in my own case, every serious gamer in my local scene who was waiting on FC has moved on to Pathfinder for a variety of what seems to me to be legitimate reasons (e.g. leverage their 3.5 stuff, came out quicker, familiar and solid game system, wide-open playtest, best-in-class production value). Nobody I know here is talking up FC.

BTW - Why does Crafty think it's so important to tackle the FRPG market to be successful as a company?

We won't capture every gamer, but this is your opportunity to show them Fantasy Craft if you're so inclined. We're not Paizo - never could be, realistically - and we'd be insane if we expected the same level of market penetration as a game with a built in audience from Dungeon and Dragon, a staff at least 10 times the size of our own, and resources out the yin-yang.

We thought fantasy was worth doing because we've been asked SO many times for it - literally 6-7 years. Nuff said.

IMHO, this appears Crafty lost a lot of initiative with FC's long development time and missed publically anticipated release dates. I don't doubt FC will be successful for you guys (you're excellent game system designers). However, you could have had a real industry-blazing champion if you hit market in 2008, while Paizo was still talking about open playtests for their game.

Sure...or maybe not. There was no way we could have released in 2008  for SO many different reasons (which I will not get into), but number 1 of which was the fact that we created Mastercraft in the process. There's no way we'll ever know what might have changed if things had been different. We're making the choices we need to make that are best for the company now, and while I'm willing to discuss plans going forward (with the usual caveats), dwelling on what might have happened is not something I think is fruitful.

The point is, we are going forward with 10kB and it is the next big thing we're doing. Focusing on what's already done is not really going to do anything but cause arguments.

[Number Three]

After reading from Alex that 10kB has been in development off-and-on for 9 years now, and through 3 editions of rulesets, isn't this an indication that this product should be Crafty's #1 priority once and for all?

IMHO, the truth is that FantasyCraft is already a missed opportunity.

"Sorry, guys, the switch to B&W for the Second Printing was a huge letdown for me."

"What is holding up the release of Fantasy Craft and/or Ten Thousand Bullets?"

"Sorry, guys, but Fantasy Craft needed to see release in 2008."

 

We get it, Portal.  You want 10KB already.  So do we all.  Trolling the boards won't make it come faster.

Unless you have a bet on an RPG company death pool your trying to nudge along, in which case I hope you lose your shirt.

[Crafty_Pat]

I agree with Alex that there's no point looking at the past except to learn from it, and since that's not what the OP is trying to have us do there's really nothing to be gained there.

I will say, however, that Fantasy Craft is - without a doubt and hands down, even at this early stage - the strongest-selling product we have ever released. Period. To say that it's going to help us do everything else we need or want to do as a company is a massive understatement. Frankly, this surprises neither Alex nor I, nor - it appears - the majority in the public. Fantasy is a HUGE market - bigger and more lucrative than any other single segment of RPG business will ever be. Full stop. That's just the nature of the beast.

Why go into the fantasy market as a previously modern-only company? Well, let me count the reasons, many of which will go into funding our modern endeavors. Just sayin'.

[Portal]

Desertpuma,

I've been gaming for 30+ years. My statement about the majority of RPG players will only play the Fantasy genre is dead on. Keep in mind that a majority is only 51% or 50.1% to be technical about it.

Sorry, but the "I've been playing for X number of years" card isn't proof of evidence for me. I've been playing RPGs for just about 25 years myself. You're welcome to an opinion, but let's not call it fact until real data is presented.

Your Spycraft comment there makes me wonder if you've even picked up the book and thumbed your way back to the Campaign Qualities section were you can make your own home game into EXACTLY what you are saying. I'm betting you haven't yet done that. Perhaps you should before you make such a statement.

I've looked at SC 2.0 a number of times, including the Qualities section. The problem is the game's aesthetics (stuff I consider important in order to get inspired) and core design approach don't tackle the gritty, street-oriented type of campaign I'm interested in. If they did, there wouldn't be a need for a Mastercraft 10kB. I just don't like the cartoony, "four-colour" graphics and I can't get inspired to encourage my players to ignore them to get into a "GTA" kind of campaign theme. Good RPGs are 75+% inspiration, 25% good rules design, IMHO, at least for a gamemaster / referee.

Krensky,

I checked your article. From what I can tell, it's just some guy's (like you or I) opinion on the gaming scene from 8 years ago. Don't see any real analytical data, just a bunch of somewhat flawed assumptions. For example, there are a variety of good reasons why Shadowrun outsold Cyberpunk, such as game company support, production value, and overall completeness of setting development. Fans of realistic Westerns now have a reasonably popular and solid selling RPG: Aces & Eights.

You loose a lot of credibility there. Interlock is a perfectly fine system once you appreciate it's weakness.

I didn't like the game system in 2.0.2.0, and I didn't like it much more in 3rd Edition. One of the reasons I always liked Shadowrun more, elves or no elves.

Crafty Guys,

It's great to hear 10kB is the next major release priority.

[Nepenthe]

... What?

[Desertpuma]

Well, Portal ... Of all the gamers I have met or know, I can honestly say I know you are in the minority with your belief about FRPGs. I also know you are in the minority on the 2020 Cyberpunk (v3 was complete crapass and I will concede that point) Interlock because many people were not fond of the bucket o' dice concept. As for your 75/25 belief, we will definitely disagree. Inspiration, for many gamers I know, does not start & stop with the game book. Films, music, TV shows, history, and novels all play their part too.

[Krensky]

Sorry, but the "I've been playing for X number of years" card isn't proof of evidence for me. I've been playing RPGs for just about 25 years myself. You're welcome to an opinion, but let's not call it fact until real data is presented.

If you've been playing for 25 years and arguing this point, you're eihter just being contrary or you haven't payed attention to the hobby or industry outside your local group.

I've looked at SC 2.0 a number of times, including the Qualities section. The problem is the game's aesthetics (stuff I consider important in order to get inspired) and core design approach don't tackle the gritty, street-oriented type of campaign I'm interested in. If they did, there wouldn't be a need for a Mastercraft 10kB. I just don't like the cartoony, "four-colour" graphics and I can't get inspired to encourage my players to ignore them to get into a "GTA" kind of campaign theme. Good RPGs are 75+% inspiration, 25% good rules design, IMHO, at least for a gamemaster / referee.

This sounds more like a failure of imagination on your part then Crafty's.

I checked your article. From what I can tell, it's just some guy's (like you or I) opinion on the gaming scene from 8 years ago. Don't see any real analytical data, just a bunch of somewhat flawed assumptions. For example, there are a variety of good reasons why Shadowrun outsold Cyberpunk, such as game company support, production value, and overall completeness of setting development. Fans of realistic Westerns now have a reasonably popular and solid selling RPG: Aces & Eights.

Skarka is Adamant Entertainment. I'll take his informed opinion about the facts of the industry over yours. Cyberpunk 2020 was lavishly supported, had a number of books written by authors in the field (Walter John Williams for one), and covered everything from Night City, to the EuroZone, to the Far East to Near Earth Orbit to Deep Space. It even covered what the world would look like in four hundred years. Shadowrun had some color plates and Elves and the power of the Fredonian Aerospace Administration behind it.

As for Aces and Eights, it's still outsold by Deadlands, and I'll bet you if you took a poll of people entering GenCon or Origins, less the half - probably a lot less then half - would have heard of it.

I didn't like the game system in 2.0.2.0, and I didn't like it much more in 3rd Edition. One of the reasons I always liked Shadowrun more, elves or no elves.

That's your opinion, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with either Interlock or Fuzion (which is an evolution of Interlock). Shadowrun has gone through four different, albeit related, rule systems. It's also never gotten past it's immature view of the subject matter or it's pandering to people who think Bladerunner is Cyberpunk.

The rules in v3 are solid (although the AltCults are a weird mishmash of post-cyberpunk concepts and styles). The art was clearly a mistake, but it doesn't prevent me from actually reading and deciding the games merits on it's own basis.

[Nepenthe]

This 'graphics' thing has me constantly check that I haven't actually been misdirected to the IGN console forums or some other haunt of teenage males.

[Agent 333]

Man, the graphics on SMB3 are SOOO outdated. The gameplay was awesome, but I can't bring myself to play a super-awesome game that I love simply because the graphics look like they're from the 80s or something.
/sarcasm

[Sletchman]

I've looked at SC 2.0 a number of times, including the Qualities section. The problem is the game's aesthetics (stuff I consider important in order to get inspired) and core design approach don't tackle the gritty, street-oriented type of campaign I'm interested in. If they did, there wouldn't be a need for a Mastercraft 10kB. I just don't like the cartoony, "four-colour" graphics and I can't get inspired to encourage my players to ignore them to get into a "GTA" kind of campaign theme. Good RPGs are 75+% inspiration, 25% good rules design, IMHO, at least for a gamemaster / referee.

I find this very interesting, and I have to admit I disagree here.  You can get some really thematic games that play like garbage, and of course the opposite.  I take more inspiration from reading books, watching movies / television / documentaries, and surfing the web then I ever have from a roleplaying book.  With a small number of exceptions, I tend to watch a film, and then go "Oh wow this would make a great game" and then search for a game system which supports what I want to run.  Its a rare system that makes me want to run a game based entirely on its non-rules sections.

[Portal]

Krensky,

I've been playing RPGs for almost 25 years and have lived in 4 different Canadian provinces, so I've been exposed to a number of gaming "scenes". Consistently, I've met more players who are willing to give many RPG genres a try, and far fewer who will only play high medieval fantasy. However, I won't try to protray my viewpoint and experience as fact. I encourage yourself and Puma to dig up some more hard data than one industry insider's impressions blog from 8 years ago.

This sounds more like a failure of imagination on your part then Crafty's.

Call it whatever you want, but obviously visual presentation and graphics matter to the RPG marketplace because virtually every successful RPG company invests in art direction and graphics. Nearly every RPG review brings up aesthetics and visual presentation as relevant subject matter. Customers buy games on whether they look good or not. I'm not saying it's the only factor that matters (the most important factor to me is whether the game inspires good stories, even moreso than good "crunch"), but it does matter.

Skarka is Adamant Entertainment. I'll take his informed opinion about the facts of the industry over yours.

Don't worry, I didn't ask you to take my opinion. I just asked for some more real data, not impressions and viewpoints (insider source or not).

Cyberpunk 2020 was lavishly supported, had a number of books written by authors in the field (Walter John Williams for one), and covered everything from Night City, to the EuroZone, to the Far East to Near Earth Orbit to Deep Space. It even covered what the world would look like in four hundred years. Shadowrun had some color plates and Elves and the power of the Fredonian Aerospace Administration behind it.

I didn't state Cyberpunk wasn't supported. It's just that FASA supported and developed SR even moreso.

Shadowrun has gone through four different, albeit related, rule systems. It's also never gotten past it's immature view of the subject matter or it's pandering to people who think Bladerunner is Cyberpunk.

The average gamer doesn't care about proper homage to a literary movement, nor should they, IMHO. They just want to play a darn good RPG that inspires, is fun to play, and is well supported. Shadowrun succeeded in these areas. Companies like Catalyst wouldn't hold the torch if this game didn't have a solid, enduring fan base.

Agent333,

SMB was always crap, dude.

[Portal]

Turnip666,

Are you then suggesting that IYHO, there's no real reason for Crafty to do a Mastercraft 10kB? Us GMs should be able do our own campaign homework and make SC 2.0 do what we need?

No judgements being passed; just curious to know where you're coming from at the end of the day.

[Morganti]

I think what he is saying is that you have everything in the 2.0 rule book to run a GTA campaign, you don't expressly need 10kb to run a gritty street crime based rpg.  The rules already support, through use of campaign qualities, that type of play.  10kb will expand upon that, and provide a >setting< not the rules for that setting.  In many ways, its very similar to FantasyCraft, which provides no setting, but rules to run most fantasy themed games out of the box, and many more just buy invoking the campaign qualities.

10kb in many ways, represents to me, a campaign setting with supporting rules.

Like i mentioned way back when, my ultimate goal is to take 10kb, and merge it with the fantasy craft toolkit, and re-create Dragera, (sort of, I already have my namesake weaponry figured out)

[Krensky]

I've been playing RPGs for almost 25 years and have lived in 4 different Canadian provinces, so I've been exposed to a number of gaming "scenes". Consistently, I've met more players who are willing to give many RPG genres a try, and far fewer who will only play high medieval fantasy. However, I won't try to protray my viewpoint and experience as fact. I encourage yourself and Puma to dig up some more hard data than one industry insider's impressions blog from 8 years ago.

Since you're the one claiming a thesis in opposition of the accepted truth, it's your responsibility to provide evidence. Especially since your claim is so far outside the general experience.

Call it whatever you want, but obviously visual presentation and graphics matter to the RPG marketplace because virtually every successful RPG company invests in art direction and graphics. Nearly every RPG review brings up aesthetics and visual presentation as relevant subject matter. Customers buy games on whether they look good or not. I'm not saying it's the only factor that matters (the most important factor to me is whether the game inspires good stories, even moreso than good "crunch"), but it does matter.

Actually, what I and others get from your arguments now and in the past is that if a game doesn't have a huge art budget and full color glossy printing, it's crap and will not sell. Art is important, but also note that on those reviews it's the least meaningful part of the review.

I didn't state Cyberpunk wasn't supported. It's just that FASA supported and developed SR even moreso.

Talsorian released more books for 2020 then were released for any edition of SR. CP2020 also had third party support from both Atlas and Ianus (later DreamPod 9). FASA was riding high at the time though, and had lots and lots of money to spend on marketing, materials, and paying B-list authors to write mediocre novels.

The average gamer doesn't care about proper homage to a literary movement, nor should they, IMHO. They just want to play a darn good RPG that inspires, is fun to play, and is well supported. Shadowrun succeeded in these areas. Companies like Catalyst wouldn't hold the torch if this game didn't have a solid, enduring fan base.

Yes, the world is filled with people who would rather play the unholy spawn of Gibson and Tolkien, regardless of the quality of the mechanics, the world or anything else. Production qualities had little to do with it. FASA stroking the prefrence for fantasy and throwing tons and tons and tons of money at marketing.

[Aldus Vertten]

Like i mentioned way back when, my ultimate goal is to take 10kb, and merge it with the fantasy craft toolkit, and re-create Dragera, (sort of, I already have my namesake weaponry figured out)

Nice.

When Crafty first decided to make 10kb, it was supossed to be a Spycraft setting. Just like WoF is. You were going to get some rules, but the core mechanics were in SC. So i think you really can make a GTA style with just that.

Now, with Mastercraft, we've a new set of rules, and a new philosophy behind it. You will get the setting, and the rules with it. It will be different that the original idea, just like FC is different from the original project that gave birth to it.

Thing is, SC and FC are toolkits, and you're suppose to use this tools to make the game you want. 10Kb will be a different thing, because its gonna be the first setting they publish with the rules in it. The good thing, we're gonna be able to use them with all their Mastercraft books.

And for the record, after working for 8 years in a game store, coordinated a GameCon for 10 years, and having been playing rpgs for about 16 years, i agree with what has been said here that Fantasy rpgs are the big cake of the market, and everything else is just very little, tiny, pieces. The fantasy sales are way bigger than everything else. And in the convention, you're lucky if you find some table not playing some variation of the fantasy genre.