Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 25, 2014, 01:51:49 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Products
| |-+  Ten Thousand Bullets
| | |-+  Now that FC is out the door...
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Now that FC is out the door...  (Read 14075 times)
Sletchman
Control
******
Posts: 4102


Gentleman Scholar.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2009, 09:45:39 PM »

Turnip666,

Are you then suggesting that IYHO, there's no real reason for Crafty to do a Mastercraft 10kB? Us GMs should be able do our own campaign homework and make SC 2.0 do what we need?

No judgements being passed; just curious to know where you're coming from at the end of the day.

Actually I was looking forward to 10kB more then FantasyCraft [which I LOVE].  Like many others I'm going to combobulate it with fantasy for a specific idea I have.  I wasn't really making a point, just found it interesting how it seems we approach things from the opposite direction.

I have to date run [with spycraft only]: An early 1900's Sherlock Holmes meets HP Lovecraft game, a Gritty street-level game [not GTA, but the players were small time crim's on the up], Stargate, a Super-Spies game, a Superhero game, a paramilitary black ops game, and Warhammer 40k [twice]

I've played in: Sliders, a cold war game, a hellboy-esque BPRD game set in ww2, a military game set in the gulf war [first], Warhammer 40k [a mate used the rules I came up with to run a necromunda game].

Thats the versatility of the system, you don't need a book to say "here's how to do it", you just need to watch some fast and furious, play some GTA4, and figure what you want your players to do.  A copy of big score helps too.  Does this mean 10kB won't be worth buying? Hell no, I'm 100% sure its gonna be awesome, with a side order of awesome.  I'll get it the second I know its available, because it'll be good for my group, and get plenty of use.

You know what might be a better idea, if you have both FC and Spycraft [an assumption i know] graft the wealth and gear rules from FC to SC.  Instead of silver give dollars, and change the reknown titles.  The rest fits like a glove.
Logged
Nepenthe
Control
******
Posts: 1281


High Priest of the Cult of Crafty


View Profile
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2009, 03:54:52 AM »

Call it whatever you want, but obviously visual presentation and graphics matter to the RPG marketplace because virtually every successful RPG company invests in art direction and graphics. Nearly every RPG review brings up aesthetics and visual presentation as relevant subject matter. Customers buy games on whether they look good or not. I'm not saying it's the only factor that matters (the most important factor to me is whether the game inspires good stories, even moreso than good "crunch"), but it does matter.

Sure, art and graphic design (I can't bring myself to talk about 'graphics') are of importance to the overall reading experience - it's just that MOAR COLOR is not always better. SC and FC beat out most of the art in WotCy's current Star Wars edition (just look at the inside art of the Kotor campaign guide - there's some uuugly shit!). And while that product line probably has a reduced art budget by WotC standards, still...

That said, if there was a limited leaf-gold plated full-colour version of SC 2.0 2nd printing, I'd probably be all over it. FC, I really dig the way it is. Not because I need to have Da Vinci on the inner pages to inspire me, my inspiration comes 75 % from sources outside the RPG books, anyway, and that's one part of your 'argument' I'm completely unable to get.

Still, I'm happier buying solid gold in a brown paper wrapping than a turd wrapped like this.
Logged

Reapercussions
Portal
Recruit
*
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2009, 10:26:35 AM »

Krensky,

Quote
Since you're the one claiming a thesis in opposition of the accepted truth, it's your responsibility to provide evidence. Especially since your claim is so far outside the general experience.

I'm not claiming any thesis. I'm just giving an opinion and my experience. It's yourself who is claiming an "accepted truth" that most RPGers won't play anything but high fantasy. Sure, fantasy RPGs sell the most, but what people buy is not a direct correlation to what people will and won't do. In reasoned debate, the onus is on those claiming facts (not opinion) to provide hard data and evidence.

Quote
Actually, what I and others get from your arguments now and in the past is that if a game doesn't have a huge art budget and full color glossy printing, it's crap and will not sell.

Then you didn't comprehend my post, nor am I convinced you speak on behalf of others. I didn't suggest this. I said art and graphic design is a proven factor of significance, but not the only factor and not necessarily even the most important factor.

Quote
Talsorian released more books for 2020 then were released for any edition of SR.

I'm not sure this is true (I'd appreciate links to respective complete catalogues). I do know that SR was in higher distribution and circulation to FLGSs, making it easier to acquire SR product.

Quote
FASA stroking the prefrence for fantasy and throwing tons and tons and tons of money at marketing.

Actually, I think SR succeeded because it gave the opportunity to play both gritty, high-tech street-oriented games, as well as include story lines for the mysterious supernatural. It was a well-developed setting in its own right.






Logged
Krensky
Control
******
Posts: 6936


WWTWD?


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2009, 11:30:31 AM »

I'm not claiming any thesis. I'm just giving an opinion and my experience. It's yourself who is claiming an "accepted truth" that most RPGers won't play anything but high fantasy. Sure, fantasy RPGs sell the most, but what people buy is not a direct correlation to what people will and won't do. In reasoned debate, the onus is on those claiming facts (not opinion) to provide hard data and evidence.

Except this isn't reasoned debate. It's you showing up, telling Crafty that they're making huge mistakes and thye should go focus on what you want, not what they want to do. When called on it, you act like it's a reasoned debate , but you haven't provided any evidence to support your original assertions regarding color printing, ignoring fatasy, or whatever you're griping about at the time. Number 3 posted links to your earlier posts showing this pattern. Also, in the absence of hard numbers (which don't publicly exist), all we have is commentary by insiders. Skarka's in that essay, and Pat's in this thread support my argument and experience that fantasy dominates the hobby, and anything else is a niche.

Then you didn't comprehend my post, nor am I convinced you speak on behalf of others. I didn't suggest this. I said art and graphic design is a proven factor of significance, but not the only factor and not necessarily even the most important factor.

Uh-huh. Reread your comments. Read the other comments when you've complained about black and white and line drawings, or the 'four color' art in SC2.0 ruining it for you. If that's not what you were saying you need to say it better.

Quote
Talsorian released more books for 2020 then were released for any edition of SR.

I'm not sure this is true (I'd appreciate links to respective complete catalogues). I do know that SR was in higher distribution and circulation to FLGSs, making it easier to acquire SR product.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cyberpunk_2020_books#CyberPunk_2020

As for distribution, that has far more to do with the amount of money and leverage the publisher can apply to distributors and buyers.


Actually, I think SR succeeded because it gave the opportunity to play both gritty, high-tech street-oriented games, as well as include story lines for the mysterious supernatural. It was a well-developed setting in its own right.

2020 did that as well. Ianus put out stuff for supernatural play. Talsorian had licensed source books for Walter John William's "Hardwired" novel (written by the man himself), and George Allen Effinger's Budayeen setting. The game had rules for using the Mekton Z Technical System for building gear, vehicles, weapons, power armor, etc. It also (effectively) had a licensed series of books for AIC's Bubblegum Crisis Anime setting. It had a spin-off game for playing children altered by a nanotech plague that was fully compatible with the main rules. There was a source book for Mekton Z about the world 400 years in the future when Man has expanded to the stars. It had a wide variety of character types ranging from technical to social to combat and some that were a mix.

Shadowrun though, had elves. And trolls. With autocannon. FASA was also in the top five (or so, it's hazy) RPG publishers at the time. They probably had more money then any company other then TSR or (maybe) WEG at the time. This let them spend more on production, advertising, and their possition let them leverage distributors and gave them an in with bookstore buyers.
Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
Desertpuma
Control
******
Posts: 4274


Highest Level LSpy Agent 16th, almost 17th


View Profile WWW
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2009, 11:55:13 AM »

Portal,

  I gotta say looking back over everything you've brought to this discussion and I'm content that you just came here to stir things up. Now, you've tried to be subtle about it but really all you are doing is trolling it up.

  Besides myself, there have been several who provided reasons and reasonings as to why things occurred. Some of those do include the Crafty Crew (the guys who wrote the game you are complaining about), Morgenstern, Krensky, Aldus, and Morganti. The part of the problem you are encountering, while we do encourage discussion here, is you are in essence attacking a company that this community will defend and defend each other.

  You are demanding proof and it has been provided but have provided no proof to substantiate your side of the discussion/disagreement/argument.

 As for FASA, they were one of four companies running around with big budgets than most in those days. The only one Krensky did not add to that list was White Wolf. Shadowrun's system was shoddy at best, until their 20th anniversary edition which was just released, as compared to Cyberpunk & the Interlock system which was praised by players.
Logged

Crusader Citadel

Living Spycraft Mastermind Council Member

Crafty For Life!
Aragathor
Handler
*****
Posts: 707


The Black Mouse


View Profile
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2009, 01:06:13 PM »

Wow, I never thought I would see a thread on this board where SR would get flak by simply existing.
Why the hate? Can't we just all get along?
Logged

Proud member of the Crafty Freelancer Posse®.

True nobility can not be inherited, it must be achieved.

"Endure and thrive."
Desertpuma
Control
******
Posts: 4274


Highest Level LSpy Agent 16th, almost 17th


View Profile WWW
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2009, 01:13:07 PM »

I do not hate Shadowrun but their system was horrid and absolute crap.

I love Cyberpunk. The Interlock system is quick, clean, and the best at what it does. There are very few failings to it and you pain dearly in game for it.

I'm a bit of Cyberpunk setting purist as well. I think the setting is cheapened & weakened by bringing a fantasy element to it. Now, I do not wish the game die a horrible flaming death but it is not high on my list of games to play.

This is my opinion and therefore I am unanimous in it.
Logged

Crusader Citadel

Living Spycraft Mastermind Council Member

Crafty For Life!
Aragathor
Handler
*****
Posts: 707


The Black Mouse


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2009, 01:32:50 PM »

I do not hate Shadowrun but their system was horrid and absolute crap.

I love Cyberpunk. The Interlock system is quick, clean, and the best at what it does. There are very few failings to it and you pain dearly in game for it.

I'm a bit of Cyberpunk setting purist as well. I think the setting is cheapened & weakened by bringing a fantasy element to it. Now, I do not wish the game die a horrible flaming death but it is not high on my list of games to play.

This is my opinion and therefore I am unanimous in it.
Well, I am more angling towards Krensky than you. Wink
And I agree that the current rules system is the only playable one (out of the 4/4.5).

I never played CP so I don't judge the system, but with SR it wasn't the mechanics that captivated me, it was the "unholy spawn of Gibson and Tolkien" that got me playing. Grin
Logged

Proud member of the Crafty Freelancer Posse®.

True nobility can not be inherited, it must be achieved.

"Endure and thrive."
Crafty_Pat
Crafty Staff
Control
*****
Posts: 9425


End of the World? Don’t believe the hype.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2009, 01:45:14 PM »

Thats the versatility of the system, you don't need a book to say "here's how to do it", you just need to watch some fast and furious, play some GTA4, and figure what you want your players to do.  A copy of big score helps too.  Does this mean 10kB won't be worth buying? Hell no, I'm 100% sure its gonna be awesome, with a side order of awesome.  I'll get it the second I know its available, because it'll be good for my group, and get plenty of use.

Part of the reason we went to Mastercraft - a big part - is to support this. We want you to adapt the system to your needs and that's most easily done with a universal, genre-free core system. We also recognize that lots of folks need the specific flavor to get started, or don't want to tinker. Thus the "skins" (toolkit lines), of which 10kB is just one of many. There were a lot of reasons fantasy needed to come first, and we're certain it was the right call over the long haul.

Now, can we maybe move past this? None of us at Crafty HQ are particularly enamored with the tone that's emerging in this thread.
Logged

Patrick Kapera
Crafty Games
www.crafty-games.com

UPDATES/PRESS INFO
Mailing List: http://bit.ly/14FJIw7
RSS: www.crafty-games.com/needtoknow
Facebook: www.facebook.com/craftygames
Twitter: www.twitter.com/Crafty_Games

In game terms, reality is broken.
Krensky
Control
******
Posts: 6936


WWTWD?


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2009, 02:36:01 PM »

Wow, I never thought I would see a thread on this board where SR would get flak by simply existing.
Why the hate? Can't we just all get along?

Partially it's rhetoric, but largely I suppose it's a matter of familiarity breeding frustration/contempt.

Everytime I've started a cyberpunk like game (with one exception) probably half the players assumed I was using Shadowrun. After learning it was a straight game, they kept looking to play elves or trolls or whatever. Everytime I've played a SR game, it's been (bad) D&D with guns.

"This would be so much cooler with Elves." gets old.

I don't hate Shadowrun, but I have no interest in playing it. I have similar feelings about Battletech for largely similar reasons.
Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
Desertpuma
Control
******
Posts: 4274


Highest Level LSpy Agent 16th, almost 17th


View Profile WWW
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2009, 02:45:30 PM »

I will say that, knowing 10KB is on the docket, I am going to be very very patiently waiting for Shatterpunk. I figure it is way down the list considering what all is already above it. But I'll be very patient and until then I'll utilize SC for any ideas then fold in 10KB when it arrives.
Logged

Crusader Citadel

Living Spycraft Mastermind Council Member

Crafty For Life!
Krensky
Control
******
Posts: 6936


WWTWD?


View Profile
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2009, 02:50:20 PM »

I will say that, knowing 10KB is on the docket, I am going to be very very patiently waiting for Shatterpunk. I figure it is way down the list considering what all is already above it. But I'll be very patient and until then I'll utilize SC for any ideas then fold in 10KB when it arrives.

I'm waiting for that too. Heck, I'd rather get Shatterpunk first, but it's not to be. Street level crime just isn't my thing.
Logged

We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
samsimilian
Operative
****
Posts: 430


Do or do not... there is no try


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2009, 02:52:39 PM »

After reading from Alex that 10kB has been in development off-and-on for 9 years now, and through 3 editions of rulesets, isn't this an indication that this product should be Crafty's #1 priority once and for all?

IMHO, the truth is that FantasyCraft is already a missed opportunity. It really needed to beat D&D 4e to the punch in 2008. Now that Pathfinder, an excellent game, has released the same time as FC, is there really a need for FC to the point it was worth keeping 10kB on the back-burner?

Sure, there's always a need for good RPG products, regardless of genre. But Crafty's reputation was made upon being the leader in modern-setting RPG design. Mastercraft could have been developed with 10kB as the initial focus, in an RPG setting domain where Crafty is already the king and doesn't have to play catch-up against some big-boys. Why would the average (note: not the hardest of hardcore RPGer, but the usual once-a-week gamer) fantasy RPGer with a fair-sized collection of 3e/3.5 stuff pursue FantasyCraft when Paizo has released a quality, high-production value D&D replacement this year?

With the wide success of Rockstar's excellent Grand Theft Auto video games and no pen-and-paper RPG publisher with a major active game line in this setting space, I don't understand why Crafty has made the strategic decision to muck around unnecessarily in the crowded FRPG domain when it's even debatable which company currently has the best product (Pathfinder is a good game). Let's get 10kB out there, Crafty, and start taking charge in a game design space you guys own (i.e. modern pen-and-paper RPGs).

In my opinion Crafty Games will profit from the fact, that they have a fantasy system that interlocks with it's modern brethren. So if you put FC and 10kB together you should get a fine Shadowrun game.  Crafty Games is still one of the leaders in modern gaming, addig a new line that is compatible with fantasy games  will only help them to gain new customers. so i think Mastercraft was a very good move, interlocking genres within the d20 system is something not many system have achieved well.
Logged

Desertpuma
Control
******
Posts: 4274


Highest Level LSpy Agent 16th, almost 17th


View Profile WWW
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2009, 03:01:35 PM »

I will say that, knowing 10KB is on the docket, I am going to be very very patiently waiting for Shatterpunk. I figure it is way down the list considering what all is already above it. But I'll be very patient and until then I'll utilize SC for any ideas then fold in 10KB when it arrives.

I'm waiting for that too. Heck, I'd rather get Shatterpunk first, but it's not to be. Street level crime just isn't my thing.

It is not just about the street crime for 10KB. It is also corrupt cops, honest robbers, crusading journalists & campaigning lawyers. It is the Advocate's dream setting. I'm guessing there will be a Dram Con for Court or Trial. Plus, you'll get to mix it up with SC if you want to and you'll be able to chase down gangsters in Prohibition (w/some Fragile Minds perhaps they are working for one of the Ancient Ones).
Logged

Crusader Citadel

Living Spycraft Mastermind Council Member

Crafty For Life!
Swiftpaw
Crafty n00b

Posts: 1


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2009, 11:41:52 AM »

I think what's irked me about the 10kb delay is all the hype and excitement about it and then zip as attention was focused on FC. I don't mean to be crude (well, this is about 10kb so maybe it won't be too out of line considering the game world, lol), but it's like a pr&%k tease with no follow through. I'd just like to see less hype unless it's a for product that's actually on the way.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!