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Crafty_Alex
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 « Reply #975 on: October 28, 2009, 12:01:08 PM »

Alright, I already asked this but the answer doesn't really work with what you said, so here we go again:

What does an hour's downtime produce?

Nothing. It's not on the table, as Downtime went to a minimum of Days. However, if you have something with D compexity, you can produce it with only hours of Downtime (which will, in all likelihood, be a rarity).

In those rare cases, how do you pull it off? You don't produce anything with an hour of downtime, right? What significance does opening up an hourly check actually have?

I honestly don't know. There's a two sided formula to Crafting - the Complexity/time and the silver value. Without a produced silver value for an hour's time, I don't think it functions the way you're hoping to. Likely, we'll need to errata Crafting Supremacy to "a minimum of Days" meaning it will only affect checks with a complexity of W, M, or Y.

Well, I'm not hoping it'll work any given way, that's the way Crafty_Pat seemed to imply it worked, I just want to get a clear, resolute answer to what exactly it does.

You're hoping it will work - that's what I meant . The answer is we're missing one half of the formula (silver produced in an hour's time) which honestly goes against what we've defined Downtime as. Probably needs errata.

I dunno, Downtime is defined as "any time at least several hours pass" you could certainly manage to have downtime that's less than a full day, right?

I guess - my personal opinion is that mixing downtime into a matter of hours is needlessly fiddly (everytime the party stops for a rest, the crafter whips out his tongs, a half finished sword, starts a coke fire, and gets forging). I'm talking mechanics, here
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ztidwell
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 « Reply #976 on: October 28, 2009, 01:13:30 PM »

I guess - my personal opinion is that mixing downtime into a matter of hours is needlessly fiddly (everytime the party stops for a rest, the crafter whips out his tongs, a half finished sword, starts a coke fire, and gets forging). I'm talking mechanics, here

There are already several downtime checks that can be made in hours or even minutes of downtime.  The Resolve(Relax) check (pg 80) is a downtime check that requires downtime of at least 10 minutes and would be useless if the minimum downtime was a day because all stress damage should be healed at that point anyway.

The Medicine(Treatment)  (pg 78) requires a downtime of at least 2 hours.  This creates some strange situations with the one check per downtime rules.  For example, a battle with a Mummy leaves the entire party (except for the Doctor) diseased.  After the fight, there is a week of downtime.  In this week, the doctor can only treat a single patient.  Furthermore, while that patient could theoretically benefit from up to 5 treatment checks, the doctor is only able to treat him once in that week.  In order to treat someone multiple times or to treat the entire party, the doctor needs multiple periods of 2 hours of downtime.
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Crafty_Alex
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 « Reply #977 on: October 28, 2009, 01:55:39 PM »

It's not a problem when the Downtime is not actually generating money.

Medicine/Treatment's still getting the eyeball.
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Antilles
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 « Reply #978 on: October 28, 2009, 02:57:02 PM »

Also, the crafting rules look a bit wonky when it comes to cooking... an entire day to prepare a meal? It seems off, especially when most foods have such positive and desirable effects (eating fresh food after fighting with mummies that sickened the entire party, for instance).
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Crafty_Alex
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 « Reply #979 on: October 28, 2009, 03:42:27 PM »

Also, the crafting rules look a bit wonky when it comes to cooking... an entire day to prepare a meal? It seems off, especially when most foods have such positive and desirable effects (eating fresh food after fighting with mummies that sickened the entire party, for instance).

Cooking's meant to be for professional chef-style stuff (whipping up a meal that magically cures all ills is a significant benefit), not just "I can make grilled cheese." We are looking how Improvisation works with Cooking in particular.
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Krensky
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WWTWD?

 « Reply #980 on: October 28, 2009, 03:58:38 PM »

I haven't really read the crafting rulls and my book isn't at hand...

How about using the rules as written? A hourly check produces no value, but you can still use raw materials?
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gaghiel42
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 « Reply #981 on: October 28, 2009, 04:05:02 PM »

Quote
We are looking how Improvisation works with Cooking in particular.

One instance of improvisation for you is in our group.  Our Unborn is flavored out as a giant walking cast iron stove that has focused a large chunk of his skills and feats on cooking and the crafting skill.

He's got this lifetime goal of cooking legendary beasts and starting up his own awesome restaurant ala the movie The Freshmen.

Anyways, he's got crafting basics and the many armed feat so he could have extra cooking arms working inside his body as he does stuff, giving him almost constant 'downtime' for those hands while he adventures.  With as crazy as he's been rolling I've been letting him whip up a meal for the party at least once a scene if he wants to and has the materials for it.

Since its basically still a cinematic game, there is little time in my campaign for the downtime regimen of eating and such so I let him cook on the go as needed and just make the check when he wants to pull it into play.

Now, this is a strange situation to be sure, but I'd say that would only work if they have some means of portable cookery materials available.  Otherwise, I'd be making them set up camp fires, find a kitchen, etc which allows for some structured downtime and R&R.
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Agent Codename Whitefire
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mach1.9pants
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 « Reply #982 on: October 28, 2009, 04:07:53 PM »

That is one of the most awesome character concepts I have heard, made me laugh. And a feather in the hat of FC's flexibility!
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Gloria Finis
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 « Reply #983 on: October 28, 2009, 04:09:46 PM »

He also took the Elemental Heritage (Fire) feat so he's got a constant supply of magical fire to cook by in his tummy, and he can heat up his arms and burn people if need be.
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Agent Codename Whitefire
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Daedalus
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 « Reply #984 on: October 28, 2009, 07:02:16 PM »

I have a question about Best of the Best. (p. 47)  Does this give the character that benefits a "trained" benefit in the skill, or merely the arithmetic bonus?

In the former case, it becomes extremely useful for the whole party, but in the latter it seems that the Sage is better off most of the time using it for themselves with their "at least 1 rank in every skill" conceit.  Thanks in advance!

Also, oven man is awesome.
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Bill Whitmore
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 « Reply #985 on: October 28, 2009, 07:59:28 PM »

I guess - my personal opinion is that mixing downtime into a matter of hours is needlessly fiddly (everytime the party stops for a rest, the crafter whips out his tongs, a half finished sword, starts a coke fire, and gets forging). I'm talking mechanics, here

This wouldn't normally happen as the smallest time increment on weapons is a Day.  The only time this is even possible is if someone has invested 3 feats into crafting, and I don't really see a need to begrudge the guy who has invested that much into crafting from working on his project when he has a few spare hours.

The important thing to me is that Downtime is STILL declared by the GM, and I don't know many GMs who would consider breaking for lunch for an hour to be a downtime event, though if you set camp for the remainder of the day so you can continue into some area at first light, you may have several hours.

For the table in hours, it seems to me you have a few choices.  Either divide the result by 25, divide the result by 15 and impose a maximum of 10 hours of work in a given day, or divide the result by 10 and have a maximum of 8 hours of work in a day.  Any numbers may work so long as the divisor is greater than the number of hours that can be worked in a day.  In any of these cases, you are still better off doing daily work as you get more silver for the time invested.

If none of those work, you could let him work on the project during hourly downtimes, but only have him make a roll when he has accumulated enough hours to constitute a days worth of work, say 8, 12 hours or 24 hours, then use the Per Day column.

What I would not want to do is tell my player "I KNOW you have 20 ranks in crafting and 3 feats towards it and I UNDERSTAND you already have a pole and a dagger, but no, you can't put them together unless the party agrees to make camp for a day."

Edit: By the by, I am NOT advocating that this be made an official errata or anything.  I am merely stating how I would handle it at my table and posting it so others who DO want an hourly rate have some options.  The people I game with would not have a problem with hourly crafting rates of 0.1s, 0.3s and 0.6s.  But I know there are some people who are deathly afraid of decimal points.
 « Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 08:08:18 PM by Bill Whitmore » Logged

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Crafty_Pat
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 « Reply #986 on: October 28, 2009, 08:49:04 PM »

OK, there's clearly confusion on several fronts with Downtime and Crafting. We've caused some of it (my bad on the multiplication thing), and some it is coming from questions turning us around (again, my bad). Other confusion is coming from questions not being asked consistently and/or initial assumptions getting in the way of how things are intended to work. So before I get back to specific questions, here's the intent - and after any errata and/or clarifications that are required, how it will work...

- Downtime is intended to be a simple and fast way of letting you do things between periods of adventure. Each character makes no more than one roll, does only the scantest amount of basic math, generates a single result toward a single goal, and everyone gets back to the adventure.

- Crafting is intended to be a laborious, time-intensive activity that cannot be undertaken in increments smaller than one day, resulting in salable and/or potent items of the type you see on the gear tables. This is because anything less impressive isn't worth the trouble of using the Crafting system and also to support the first point above: to keep Downtime simple and fast.

- Any period shorter than a day is simply too fiddly for Crafting checks. That way lies madness. Thus, we will be making any changes necessary (if any are indeed necessary) to prevent Crafting checks that actually take anything less than 1 full day of game time. (Remember this - it'll be important when we get back to Crafting Supremacy.)

- Some Downtime checks - unless I'm mistaken, all but Crafting, earning income, and fostering good will - are set up to happen in Downtime mainly because they need to happen outside the flow of regular adventuring. In some cases, like Treatment, we'll be looking at ways to exclude them from certain Downtime restrictions, or possibly making them non-Downtime checks that must still happen outside combat and certain other periods of play (e.g. Complex Tasks, times of stress or distraction, etc.).

- Non-Crafting Downtime checks that specifically take less than 1 full day are NOT an indication that Crafting checks (or, for that matter, any other Downtime check) should be allowed in less than 1 full day.

With all this in mind, and ignoring all that has been said so far (even by us), here's a rescript of Crafting Supremacy that hopefully clears things up...

Crafting Supremacy
Your exhaustive knowledge lets you create complex masterpieces with incredible swiftness.
Requirement: Crafting Mastery
Benefit: Choose 1 of your Crafitng Mastery feats. When creating items of this type, you produce quadruple the normal silver value.
Also, the minimum Downtime required for items of this type decreases by 1 step, to a minimum of D (i.e. Y becomes M, M becomes W, and W becomes D). This does not impact the silver value generated.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, choosing a different Crafting Mastery feat each time (e.g. Crafting Supremacy (Chemistry), Crafting Supremacy (Pottery), etc.).

Again, please ignore all previous explanations and interpretations. Let's see if this works on its own merits.

Now, Alex has done a great job following up on the examples, so I'll ignore those and get to individual questions (again, keeping the intent/goal in mind)...

You know, much as I hate to disagree with authors, it does indeed say on page 73 that you should multiply the monetary result of the check by the amount of downtime (i.e. 4 days, 5 weeks or 9 months) spent on the check.

Ah yes, my bad. Long, long ago, in the before-time, there was no multiplication. That was before we shifted the silver results so that the longest periods produced the most output (see Intent, above).

Quote
So if my group had the luxury to say have 2 months downtime after a righteous haul, then they could make a downtime check and either earn 2x month (check) silver (and apply their prudence to it), or they could spend that much silver towards making an item.

That sounds... logical?

In a vacuum, that's correct. The parity between Crafting output and income is intentional.

Can't you craft as your generate income skill? The two tables are exactly the same.... right? So you can either earn X amount of money as downtime or craft X value goods during downtime.

Yes, you can - just as you can generate income with any skill.

I think that you make one roll for the entire downtime period (say three weeks if you've got it), get the value per week/month/day, then multiply said value to get total amount accrued

This is correct. As I mention above, my previous statement that there was no multiplication was in error but I was right that you only make 1 Downtime roll. That's critical.

Which works out to the same thing?  So if the crafter only has a Downtime of 1 week at a shot, he could make part of the sword (30s worth) set it aside then come back and finish it later in your next downtime?

Only if your GM allows banking (per the last paragraph of the Build or Improve Object description).

Quote
Otherwise, how do you know up front that you will only roll say the 21 in the example above, and get 30s per week or do you have to assume a worse case scenario and say ok, at my worst roll it means it will take me X weeks (9 weeks in the example I gave) and thus you cant make the sword unless you have a 9 week downtime?

Unless your GM allows banking, you have to declare the single item you want before you make the roll. In a game without banking, you will sometimes not generate enough silver to make a desired object, in which case that Downtime period is wasted (representing the trial and error crafters often experience, especially with objects at or above their competency).

You try and make the sword, and if it takes more time than you have you stop making it. Up to the GM whether or not you can save your progress if you didn't complete it.

If it takes less time, you make other stuff to sell for the difference in silver between your check and the cost for the sword.

Quote from: Crafting check description, page 73
At the GM’s discretion, the character may “bank” Value toward a particularly large or complex item but this significantly increases bookkeeping and is only recommended for advanced games.

So basically, if the GM says it's ok, you can spread a Crafting check out over separate downtime checks. Personally, as long as the PC owned the facility (i.e. holding with a workshop) he should be able to store half-made stuff there.

All this is intentionally left to the GM. I imagine lots of GMs won't allow banking or false starts - to avoid the bookkeeping, keep things simple, or to represent partial failure as described above.

I guess - my personal opinion is that mixing downtime into a matter of hours is needlessly fiddly (everytime the party stops for a rest, the crafter whips out his tongs, a half finished sword, starts a coke fire, and gets forging). I'm talking mechanics, here

This wouldn't normally happen as the smallest time increment on weapons is a Day.  The only time this is even possible is if someone has invested 3 feats into crafting, and I don't really see a need to begrudge the guy who has invested that much into crafting from working on his project when he has a few spare hours.

We do. While certainly plausible, it'll bog play down to a crawl if someone focuses on Crafting and seizes every opportunity to make Downtime checks (which by their very nature demand the GM's attention and exclude everyone else at the table). That said...

Quote
The important thing to me is that Downtime is STILL declared by the GM, and I don't know many GMs who would consider breaking for lunch for an hour to be a downtime event, though if you set camp for the remainder of the day so you can continue into some area at first light, you may have several hours.

This is why we leave the option open. Each table's play pattern is going to be different but as a large number of groups feel the need to play only in the RAW (excuse the nasty pun) and many will in our opinion react poorly to core rules that exclude most of the party - especially if they're anything more than a trivial check - we set the baseline to not allow anything below a (D)ay.

Quote
We are looking how Improvisation works with Cooking in particular.

One instance of improvisation for you is in our group.  Our Unborn is flavored out as a giant walking cast iron stove that has focused a large chunk of his skills and feats on cooking and the crafting skill.

He's got this lifetime goal of cooking legendary beasts and starting up his own awesome restaurant ala the movie The Freshmen.

Anyways, he's got crafting basics and the many armed feat so he could have extra cooking arms working inside his body as he does stuff, giving him almost constant 'downtime' for those hands while he adventures.  With as crazy as he's been rolling I've been letting him whip up a meal for the party at least once a scene if he wants to and has the materials for it.

Since its basically still a cinematic game, there is little time in my campaign for the downtime regimen of eating and such so I let him cook on the go as needed and just make the check when he wants to pull it into play.

Now, this is a strange situation to be sure, but I'd say that would only work if they have some means of portable cookery materials available.  Otherwise, I'd be making them set up camp fires, find a kitchen, etc which allows for some structured downtime and R&R.

He also took the Elemental Heritage (Fire) feat so he's got a constant supply of magical fire to cook by in his tummy, and he can heat up his arms and burn people if need be.

See, this is an awesome concept, and doesn't bother me mechanically because the character's investing in feats to make it happen, but I still might not allow it in my game unless a) the player was quick enough on the draw to get the rolls done without interrupting the rest of the game, b) I had a strong enough rapport with the player to adjudicate the checks without interripting the rest of the game, c) everyone else was comfortable with the concept and execution, and d) the result didn't throw off anything in my setting and story.

And as a game designer I'd never allow that as a core option. It's not something I think most tables would abide well.

Hope that clears up the crafting issues. Do me a favor and respond only to this post and forward. Alex read it before I posted and so it's the most current response from Crafty Games. Thanks!
 « Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 08:53:28 PM by Crafty_Pat » Logged

Patrick Kapera
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Daedalus
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 « Reply #987 on: October 28, 2009, 09:48:17 PM »

Thanks for clearing up the whole Crafting issue, Pat and Alex.  I had something that was bothering me when I looked at it from Outsider (p. 227):"If it has an Alignment, his attacks gain that Alignment and he suffers –2 damage per die from spells and effects with the opposing Alignment."

A simple (and what I assume will become common) house rule would be to change the damage penalty to opposed outsiders to a damage bonus. It shouldn't be too game breaking.

This is really important...I think the damage penalty per die needs to be a bonus to make sense:
1. It makes the Castigate I's (p. 121) expected value to Caster Level/2*1.5 Divine damage against outsiders, as a full action with a Will save for half as a level 4 spell.
2. Devotion Hammer (p. 128) works better against non-aligned characters than opposed outsiders, Expected Value 2.5*CL/2(Minimum 0) vs. Expected Value 2.5*CL/2(minimum CL/2) respectively, with exactly the same stun.  A Will save halves damage and negates the stun.
3. The Anointed Vial (p. 163) does an average of 3 Divine damage(Expected Value: 3.5*2-4, minimum 0) against opposed outsiders and nothing at all to your non-opposed enemies.  Strong Acid vials are better in almost every conceivable scenario, and only cost 5s more.
4. The Aligned weapon quality is only good for doing less damage against your outsider enemies, and does nothing else, assuming the Aligned weapon has any "effect" at all.

Essentially, 9 times out of 10, our caster is better off choosing non-aligned spells then Aligned ones, unless they offer some sort of protection, which seems to be more than worthwhile.  I prefer Fireball I over Castigate I unless I'm opposed to fiery outsiders, in which case I would still choose Lightning Bolt, although the area is different.  For Devotion Hammer, a good substitution is hard to find for the stun, but a swarm of Water Elementals should do the trick relatively well without depending on Alignment.
I just had a session where a character used an Aligned weapon.  Thankfully the enemy wasn't an outsider, otherwise he would've been better off using Magic Missile than his melee attack.  The problem is, Aligned spells that aren't defensive lose a lot of their value when a penalty as applied.  A demon hunter is better off being a non-aligned mercenary. (unless he finds a way to become an outsider)
 « Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 09:51:52 PM by Daedalus » Logged
Pneumonica
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 « Reply #988 on: October 28, 2009, 11:15:46 PM »

The rules are unclear as to exactly how Unborn weapons are installed.  Can an Unborn, with a Handle an Item action or something similar, "retract" or otherwise move out of the way an Unborn weapon, thus to use the hand normally?  Or is the only way to get back that hand to uninstall the weapon?

Also, what happens with two-handed Unborn weapons?  Are both arms completely consumed by the weapon, or is one arm occupied and the other free to function as needed?
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Crafty_Pat
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 « Reply #989 on: October 29, 2009, 12:14:00 AM »

The rules are unclear as to exactly how Unborn weapons are installed.  Can an Unborn, with a Handle an Item action or something similar, "retract" or otherwise move out of the way an Unborn weapon, thus to use the hand normally?  Or is the only way to get back that hand to uninstall the weapon?

Also, what happens with two-handed Unborn weapons?  Are both arms completely consumed by the weapon, or is one arm occupied and the other free to function as needed?

I assume you're talking about the Unborn weapon upgrade? (It really helps to provide specific page references.) If so, the rules are intentionally vague to allow you to define the installation as you wish. There's no specific rule stating that the upgrade replaces any particular part of the Unborn's body, though GMs could go that way with a house rule if they wanted.
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Patrick Kapera
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