Species Feats, Attribute Modifiers, Pricing

[pawsplay]

Is there a pattern to how the species feats are priced? They often grant something like "+1 to the lower of Con or Wis" plus some other benefit, which seems to be stronger than a typical feat. How is an attribute modifer valued relative to a feat? In Fantasy Craft, attribute increases are rather more common than in That Other Game. Maybe I'm undervaluing the value of a FC feat.

For instance, "+1 to Strength" is an epic feat in That Other Game, but might it actually be a weak feat in FC, apart from being boring?

Also, is it just my imagination or do the species feats vary in utility? Perhaps there is a philosophy at work I do not understand. Obviously, the numbers aren't everything. For instance, Two Hit Combo and Darting Weapon together are not worth as much together as two feats you can use at the same time, even though you do gain some versatility.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Someone actually produced an Exel spreadsheet of point breakdowns for a bunch of the feats.  Only breaks down the first ones in their chain, unfortunately.

Hope this link works:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0At4qxM1nPsNsdFdHWDhBUWZDNkFiWW9wZVpiYzlYNUE&hl=en

[Morganti]

The Link didn't work, sadly.

One thing to remember on the whole Fantasy Craft has less total stat bumps.  The other game, has magic items which are readily available to the average adventurer.  In FantasyCraft, the only magic items that also boost stats permanently are artifacts.  That is a very important thing to remember.

Also, most species feats are designed to reflect some shift of genetic heritage.  So utility doesn't exactly come into it.  They have some bonuses, which makes them useful, and generally they allow you to fit into a different racial stereotype for that species.

Which feats in question did you think lacked umph?

[pawsplay]

Well, look at I Can Swim. While undoubtedly useful, in the long run, it advantages gradually evaporate. By contrast, Angelic Heritage grants +1 to Wis or Cha, acid resistance 5, +1 appearance, and a new Basic Skill pair. Farstride Folk is nice enough (stress resistance 4 and extra uses of chance feats) but seems a little pale next to Lava Born (fire and heat resistance 5 and a special damage conversion), especially considering the penalty it carries.

[Morgenstern]

Funny thing abotu I Can Swim: I was just looking at adding one more sentence along the lines of "If all of your skill points are assigned, you gain BLAH." Hadn't settled on a blah yet. Blah should be pretty minor, but yeah, it seemed important to have something so the feat didn't become a non-item for 20th level characters. It would also smooth out the progres of characters who end up spending their skill points pretty quickly during a level.

[Antilles]

Personally I've always felt Combat Vigor was a bit underwhelming. More vitality is always a nice thing, but there are always other feats that'll improve your survivability and give you other benefits.

i mean, let's take the character I made for the Middle Earth PbP, a defensively built soldier. He's got 85 vitality. I could've taken Combat Vigor and gained 5 more vitality, but that would've cost me 1 DR and immunity to Coup de Grace, or +2 guard and a shield total defence trick. I haven't exactly done the math, but my gut feeling tells me that Vigor is the least useful out of these feats.

Is there something I'm missing about this feat, something that makes it better than I think it is?

[pawsplay]

Funny thing abotu I Can Swim: I was just looking at adding one more sentence along the lines of "If all of your skill points are assigned, you gain BLAH." Hadn't settled on a blah yet. Blah should be pretty minor, but yeah, it seemed important to have something so the feat didn't become a non-item for 20th level characters. It would also smooth out the progres of characters who end up spending their skill points pretty quickly during a level.

Blah = an extra action die? Two bonus Interests?

[Bill Whitmore]

Funny thing abotu I Can Swim: I was just looking at adding one more sentence along the lines of "If all of your skill points are assigned, you gain BLAH." Hadn't settled on a blah yet. Blah should be pretty minor, but yeah, it seemed important to have something so the feat didn't become a non-item for 20th level characters. It would also smooth out the progres of characters who end up spending their skill points pretty quickly during a level.

Blah = an extra action die? Two bonus Interests?

The extra action die could work.  Maybe make it a bonus d4 action die.  Fortunate gives you d4 action dice and I wouldn't want the secondary effect of a feat to be greater than the primary bonus of another.

Actually, given that I Can Swim is a skill feat, I'd consider adding an effect that would be skill related.  Something like:  Once per scene before making a skill check, you may choose to add +3 to the result and consider that skill trained.

This would simulate the adaptability effects of I Can Swim without overshadowing other feats.

Interests wouldn't work.  The problem is you may gain interests that need to be lost again when you level.  So, if all skill points are assigned at level 3, interests would have to be removed at level 4 when there was a skill point reserve again.

[Morganti]

I Can Swim
[current bene]blah[/current bene]
Further, A number of times per session equal to your starting action dice, you may make one check with a skill you have no ranks in, as if it were trained, with a +3 skill bonus.

[pawsplay]

Eventually, though, you might end up trained in just about everything. How about a d6 action die, that you can use only on a skill check?

[Sageasa5]

I Can Swim - I like the removing untrained use of skill mentioned.
Also, something it can already do is allow a spellcaster to learn a spell in the middle of a game. Just buy a point of spellcasting, pick up that spell you need right now. Maybe not as good at casting all the time, but when the heat is on...

[Daedalus]

It seems a good enough feat to me in the hands of a high skill point character or at least an extraordinarily intelligent character.  If it seems that its benefits diminish over time, then a small benefit from having all skill points revealed might be appropriate, or a bonus that's conditional based on the "reveal". 

Maybe if the "revealed" skill threatens a critical success, they can activate that critical success for one less action die (minimum 0). 

Alternatively, maybe the character can spend action dice to remove revealed skill points if and only if they have already spent all of them this level, but that might be messy if it's only the skills they've increased this level.  The action die limitation ensures however, that it won't happen too often, so maybe allowing free distribution of skill points isn't too powerful.  Using per-adventure mechanic based on Skill feats wouldn't be too unreasonable, either.

A follow-up feat that allows them to remove skill ranks from skills they no longer find useful for an action die wouldn't be too bad, either.  By itself it's not necessarily a feat-worthy benefit, but a small benefit in addition to that could make it really appealing.  One of my player's main criticisms of I Can Swim is that it is possible to make a permanent character investment in a skill that might not be used again for any time in the foreseeable future.  With only 20 skills to choose from, however, I don't see this being a huge issue, unless the reason the character has no ranks in a skill is because the skill wasn't supposed to be used in the campaign on a regular basis.

[ThatBlastedSamophlange]

I actually think that I Can Swim I a better feat for characters with a lower intelligence/# of skill points.  Investing in a skill as you need it in a life or death situation.

If anything must be done, I remove the line about having to spend all you points.

[Morgenstern]

That line you probably don't want to leave out - if a character multiclasses with points still in reserve what counts as a class skill can get horribly tangled up.

As a house rule, I'm leaning towards adding "If you have assigned all of your skill points, once per session you may add a +5 bonus to one failed skill check." It's still giving you hidden reserves, which is the spirit behind the feat.

The trick with adding a Spellcasting rank is one I had considered and found very amusing . Given that in order to do so you had to spend a not inconsiderable ammount of time with a lower Spellcasting rank that you might have otherwise (basically giving yourself a -1 or more to all your spellcasting checks up until "the big reveal"), I think it's a totally fair and reasonable use.

[Morgenstern]

Is there a pattern to how the species feats are priced? They often grant something like "+1 to the lower of Con or Wis" plus some other benefit, which seems to be stronger than a typical feat. How is an attribute modifer valued relative to a feat? In Fantasy Craft, attribute increases are rather more common than in That Other Game. Maybe I'm undervaluing the value of a FC feat.

Also, is it just my imagination or do the species feats vary in utility? Perhaps there is a philosophy at work I do not understand. Obviously, the numbers aren't everything. For instance, Two Hit Combo and Darting Weapon together are not worth as much together as two feats you can use at the same time, even though you do gain some versatility.

In general they are built around (2 moderate and 1 minor ability) or (1 moderate and 3 minor abilities). In some cases there is also a draback which ups the amount of good stuff being offered. The design point metric hovers around 2.5.

+1 to lower of 2 attributes and and +2/-2 are both used as moderate abilities, but you'll note that they are in the context of the race the feat is attatched to - you'll not see the +2/-2 increasing an attribute they already have a bonus to, and the -2 being applied to a attribute they have a bonus to is not that uncommon, making the +2/-2 more of a shift to the race's basic attribute profile rather than "a bonus".