Called Shots - Vehicles

[jameswllorimer]

Sorry if this has been hashed out on the boards before, but when you're making Called Shots against vehicles, does the damage save for the whole vehicle apply, or that to which the area you're shooting at applies.

E.g. that classic of shooting the vehicles driver through the windscreen whilst he's driving straight towards you, are you going to use the DS of +4 for glass, or the +15 for the car/truck as a whole. The same logic would also apply to shooting out the tyres as well..

Thanks in advance,

James

[Trigger]

Just finished a PBP where this came into play a lot and a mission were running too.  A regular shot against vehicle would result in a vehicle damage save.  Fail so many (normal) vehicle damage saves and your ride becomes inoperable or even destroyed.

Called shot: -6 to hit and -5 initiative to hit vehicle.  If you hit AND the vehicle fails his damage save, THEN you can pick the location of the hit and apply the affects, which could render a vehicle inoperable if their A/T reaches 0 or whatever.

We used this quite a bit for anyone wanting to attack the driver of a vehicle.  We did however rule that if a player was directly next to the door/window, then they would be making a regular attack against the driver, or using the window glass damage save and so on.  This added quite an element of Agents trying to bound about the place and jump onto moving vehicles to get a better shot after their Called Shot hit, but vehicle made its damage save or to find a way to reduce the vehicle's damage save by using AP ammo or explosive ammo, which like in the movies, CAN take out a vehicle with one shot. 

[jameswllorimer]

Called shot: -6 to hit and -5 initiative to hit vehicle.  If you hit AND the vehicle fails his damage save, THEN you can pick the location of the hit and apply the affects, which could render a vehicle inoperable if their A/T reaches 0 or whatever.

I see the rule.. you roll to hit,  BUT then is the inital damage save based on the vehicle stats (+15) or  on whatever part of the vehicle you're trying to pick the location of (in my example the glass at +4)?

I'm just trying to clarify as I'm running a mission where I know low-level agents might struggle to get through that high damage save.

[Krensky]

In general, the vehicle. If using the part's save makes more sense to you at the time though, go with that.

[Trigger]

The vehicles damage save is used.  Otherwise, like my example of being directly next to the window, you could then use the glass damage save or something like that.

[Psion]

Yep.

I house rule you use the targeted DR. In some cases this doesn't work (shooting a single tire out of a semi shouldn't have the same effect as shooting one out of a motorcycle; using total DR helps compensate for this), my players tend to try to "shoot the tires" out often enough I figure I should give them something for their effort.

[Salsa]

Considering the rules when you hit Traction (tires) at the Vehicle Damage table or when you shoot at them.

The attack hits one of the vehicle’s tires. The tire
must make a Damage save against the attack’s full damage, gaining
a bonus determined by the vehicle’s Size: +0 for Small or smaller,
+1 for Medium, +2 for Large, +4 for Huge, or +6 for Colossal or
larger.

Or hitting the occupant...

One random occupant suffers the attack’s
damage minus the vehicle’s Damage save bonus (minimum 1).

I would say that the called shot penalty already hinders the player enough. The traction rules state the TIRE rolls damage save, not the vehicle (okay it could be just a misinterpretation, but that's what it says).

Although I can understand a monster truck tire being more resistant than a regular car (and that's expressed by the additional bonus) if you consider only the pure damage save, I don't see why a Sports car (compact, 1990)'s tire would be less resistant than a Classic Car (1950) and for that matter its windows, windshield. I do see a higher resistance in terms of metal.

[Bill Whitmore]

That makes me wonder what the Damage Save is for a tank's "tire".

I would just use the base vehicle's Damage Save, if only because it is a hell of a lot easier to use then trying to consider special case instances for tires and windows on any and all vehicles that may be used in combat.

[MilitiaJim]

That makes me wonder what the Damage Save is for a tank's "tire".

It's going to be in the high teens, maybe 20.  AP rounds from any but a dedicated anti-materiel rifle will just ping off.  Anti armor weapons will do major damage to tracks, known as a mobility kill.  (As opposed to a firepower kill that disables some or all of the weapons.)

[Bill Whitmore]

That makes me wonder what the Damage Save is for a tank's "tire".

It's going to be in the high teens, maybe 20.  AP rounds from any but a dedicated anti-materiel rifle will just ping off.  Anti armor weapons will do major damage to tracks, known as a mobility kill.  (As opposed to a firepower kill that disables some or all of the weapons.)

Sorry, the statement was largely facetious, intended more to point out that I do not have the knowledge or inclination to even begin parsing different Damage Save values for various hit locations.  Having said that, it IS interesting to know that if I used a Historic Tank's base damage save value of 26 for the track hits, I wouldn't be far off.

What I was trying to get at is that I don't want to make up values for tires and windows any more than I want to decide on values for tracks, doors, hoods, trunks, gas tanks, rear view mirrors or any of the other myriad pieces people could decide to target on a vehicle.  As far as I am concerned, the vehicle, and everything about it, uses the same Damage Save.  Doing anything else not only makes things incredibly complicated to decide on the fly at the table, it also cheapens gear picks people made on the vehicle.

Players may not like it, but next time they spend multiple picks on a vehicle, have an NPC render it nearly useless by taking a -6 to hit penalty against something small on the vehicle that makes it worthless.  When their chopper becomes nearly worthless because some sniper made a called shot on a rubber hydraulic hose with a crap damage save and made the whole thing worthless until repaired, they may change their mind.

[Krensky]

What the dude in the tin foil said.

Use the vehicle save almost all the time, and ad hoc something only when absolutely neccessary to maintaine AWESOME without letting the players walk all over you.

[Mister Andersen]

Also consider that a tire is a what, Tiny object? That's going to attract a bonus to its defence due to size on top of the penalty for making a called shot.

[Desertpuma]

I agree with Mr A about the tires getting additional modifiers due to size...

[jameswllorimer]

Thanks for all the helpful comments.. I ended up doing it like this. The inital damage save is done using the vehicles overall modifer and then if that fails then any effects that use a damage save modifer afterwards use the areas modifer (if appropriate).

So in the case of shooting through the windscreen at the occupant.. the drivers damage is reduced by much less in the case of a good hit.

Seemed like a good compromise to me.

[Salsa]

So hey called shots are useless, nodoby does that for real right? No one prefers to shoot through the windows and aiming at tires to takedown that fourwheeled mayhem filled up of gadgets.

*Sarcasm Sign*

Because if i'm going to still use the vehicle's base damage save everytime (and in case of tires adding that bonus for size making them even more resistant than the rest of the car itself...), but good to know that james came to a solution.