Morg's Springing feat chain

[Morgenstern]

The urge to say sarcastic things about the misuse of the English language is rising - but I will bravely fight it off.... Look up 'Urban' in any dictionary, and you will find that it doesn't include any of those beyond 'city' - Urban means 'pertaining to cities' not 'pertaining to man made structures'.

You don't find 'wilderness' and 'urban' to be a fair antonym pairing?

The point is not whether or not the word in and of itself means every possible type of human construction. It doesn't. I know that. The point is that if you assume every 10' cube of the game universe is subject to one and only one type of "terrain" from the following list:

Aquatic
Arctic
Desert
Forest
Jungle
Mountain
Plains (edit: whoops, forgot this earlier)
Swamp
Urban

...then man-made structures and developed areas make the most mechanical sense being grouped with 'Urban Terrain'. Not because they are textbook examples of 'urban', but because a character experienced in street to street warfare will thrive there more than a character knowledgeable about jungle warfare would. That is all that 'Blah terrain' really cares about . Regardless of the feat's name, there is -one- terrain feat that makes edging up to 90-degree corners and peeking around with a mirror second nature, trains you to recognize engine noises by the echoes they make off of brick-work, has you thinking about sight lines around topiary and stone fountains, and makes you contemplate the value of entry through the skylights and windows. Those skill sets are valuable around a one-room cabin or the Nakatomi Towers. It is a skill set most frequently found amongst big city cops and urban-warfare-trained military units. By virtue of being part of a modern adction adventure game and paying homage to those folks who really have it, it has the evocative (but sadly misleading I gather) name of Urban Training. The broad terrain category where it applies shared that name.

If I had it to do over, I might consider a diferent name for it since it never occured to me that such rigidly litteral interpretation of what is essentially a flavor text flag would make people cast 50% of the occupied real estate of the Earth into mechanical limbo. But, Until third edition, It's what I've got to work with, and clarifying it to be functional rather than gramatical is my primary concern.

[TheAuldGrump]

The urge to say sarcastic things about the misuse of the English language is rising - but I will bravely fight it off.... Look up 'Urban' in any dictionary, and you will find that it doesn't include any of those beyond 'city' - Urban means 'pertaining to cities' not 'pertaining to man made structures'.

You don't find 'wilderness' and 'urban' to be a fair antonym pairing?

No, not really - there are all sorts of terrain that are not wilderness. Rolling farmland as an example. If anything that is closer to the antonym of wilderness than urban is - the term Urban Jungle not being all that uncommon.

A 'wilderness' is a wild place - uncultivated, undeveloped.  Technically a desert can be considered a wilderness, though there is a distinct lack of such things as trees. Even the ocean has born the term wilderness because of its unsettled vastness. Developed is a better antonym, though lacking in panache. While more accurate I do not recommend it as a replacement for urban, except, perhaps, as I mentioned above in the comments about the use of commas.

As a somewhat separate matter - how unbalancing would it be to allow the feat to range unfettered by the surroundings of artifice? (Yes, I am becoming loquacious... a tendency that I have when I am pursuing the errant butterflies of etymology, grammar, and philology.... )

Perhaps I should round this off before I am eaten by a wild thesaurus....

The Auld Grump, they can be dangerous this time of year.

*EDIT* Hmmm, I see that the post I was replying to has been modified. However I stand by my preference of expanding upon the premise of the feat by the use of the comma. It covers all the likely surroundings that the feat, as written, would be limited to - without undue confusion.

*EDIT 2* Hmmm, examining 'Urban Training' it mentions a prerequisite of 'Streetwise' not a very useful skill when at a hunting lodge or visiting the farm....

Urban Training
You’re a predator of the concrete jungle.
Prerequisite: Streetwise 3+ ranks.
Benefit: In urban terrain, you gain a +2 insight bonus with
Survival checks and checks made to navigate or determine surprise.
Further, you gain a synergy bonus from your Streetwise
skill when making a Survival check to track in a city of 10,000 or
more people. Finally, when you plan an ambush in urban terrain,
each of your opponents suffers a –2 penalty with checks made to
determine surprise.

It seems fairly specific to the city.

Then again, I think that some parts of Jungle Training (any non-urban terrain) should have been combined with Jungle Training - very similar feats. While all Jungles are Forests not all Forests are Jungles.

The definitions in the Terrain feats do seem somewhat wonky.

[Morgenstern]

Talking with my roommate, I'm finding some amusing bits about terrain. The 10' cube of 'what is right here?' is really important to how I would make the call.

In a tunnel through a shark reef/aquarium exhibit. Surrounded by 40' feet of water on all sides.
Aquatic or Urban?
Urban.

Swimming in that same tank with an entire museum wrapped around it.
Aquatic or Urban?
Aquatic.

In a large, overgrown stand of ferns and trees inside a skyscraper attrium.
Forest or Urban?
Forest. Come in here and get me, suckers.

Leaping from railing to railing 60' above that grove.
Forest or Urban?
Urban.

Behind a convienience store, standing on asphault with a dumpster to duck behind, 34th street New York City, New York.
Urban or... well, uh, Urban?

Behind a convienience store, standing on asphault with a dumpster to duck behind, Outer Afganistan.
Still Urban . Still valid for Springing feats to clamber up on top of the joint.

Behind a barn, standing on packed dirt with the remains of a split-rail fence for company.
Urban or... Crud. Urban I guess.
Going with Urban. At least if you jump off the building their might be some hay to land in.

Flooded remains of New Orleans 10 days after the huricane. On a rooftop.
Urban. Been praticing my 'hide behind the chimney and shoot people' techniques.

Same neighborhood but paddling down a new waterway where the street used to be.
Seems like a good contender for Aquatic.

Same place 40 years later after it's been decided to let the city sink.
Really good candidate for swamp. Might have some urban patches sprinkled in it.

Central Park, New York, today.
Probably a mix of mostly Urban Training folks rule (lawns, playgrounds, trails, gardens) and some areas that I'd let Forest Training folks work their magic in.

None of this is hard and fast, but it's how I'd be making calls as a GC with the goal of giving player characters (and NPCs) with terrain sensitive abilities a fair shot at bringing them into play.

[Morgenstern]

*EDIT 2* Hmmm, examining 'Urban Training' it mentions a prerequisite of 'Streetwise' not a very useful skill when at a hunting lodge or visiting the farm....

*chuckle* You've just stumbled out of a blizzard you don't have the Survival ranks to ignore and found a cabin. Unfortunately a gentleman with an orange ball cap and a very large rifle meets you there in the doorway. The smell of cooking bacon wafting through the door is about to make you collapse to your knees. Your assets include a very expensive watch.

Right now Streetwise is damn near the only skill you need .

Looking at the feat I see two abilites tied to the nebulous and GC-morphable concept "urban terrain" and one benefit expressly linked to a population center. By that standard, if every part of of the feat was intended to only work in large population centers, it would have been easy enoguh to tie all the abilites to the 10,000 people limit.

Wikipedia's entry for "urban area" includes several amusing passages.

"An urban area is an area with an increased density of human-created structures in comparison to the areas surrounding it. This term is at one end of the spectrum of suburban and rural areas. An urban area is more frequently called a city or town."

"In Canada, an urban area is an area that has more than 400 people per square kilometre and has more than 1,000 people."

Seems like the term has some room to breathe .

[TheAuldGrump]

Of course it is possible that some terrains just wouldn't have specialized training. The default rolling farmland as an example - it is open. It is flat. It is kind of boring, really. Dull, dull, dull, dull. That cow is looking at me funny. And I have no cover! I am going over to that nice safe stand of trees over there. I just realized that isn't a cow. It's a bull. And it is coming this way....

Training says to stay out of areas like that, it is too easy to get shot. Perhaps a new terrain feat 'Rural Training' would cover that 50% in limbo. Gods only know what kind of bonus it would give though, except perhaps the standard Ambush bonus. (Now picturing Sheriff Andy Taylor in a very odd episode of Mayberry RFD. )

I mostly agree with your calls - the exception being 'behind the barn'. That is why I would use my friend the comma - the farm would then be included. Because this is a new chain there is no need to tie it to an existing terrain feat.

The Auld Grump

[Morgenstern]

Now we have achieved 'great minds' moment - because I look at that terrain list and I too think, "what about plains"

And them my brain seizes up trying to of something cool to do with 200 miles of flat in all directions . Tap for white mana maybe?

Also my behind a barn comment wasn't entirely facetious. It's urban... I guess. For lack of a better classification that's the best fit. Given the "what is within 10' of me model, the walls and fence are structure enough to make it work in my book. Real live cropland gets hazy even to me.

I'm looking at adding maybe a couple more in light of the exploration theme of Farthest Star. Ruins maybe. Blasted (torturous terrain not found on Earth except in the most rugged of places like "Cratters of the Moon, Idaho"). Out in the Black.

[TheAuldGrump]

*EDIT 2* Hmmm, examining 'Urban Training' it mentions a prerequisite of 'Streetwise' not a very useful skill when at a hunting lodge or visiting the farm....

*chuckle* You've just stumbled out of a blizzard you don't have the Survival ranks to ignore and found a cabin. Unfortunately a gentleman with an orange ball cap and a very large rifle meets you there in the doorway. The smell of cooking bacon wafting through the door is about to make you collapse to your knees. Your assets include a very expensive watch.

Right now Streetwise is damn near the only skill you need .

No, any number of skills fit better there - Bluff, Manipulate or Impress (all with a Bribery bonus 'you can have this nice watch'), Intimidate (if you feel bulletproof)

. Streetwise is likely to get you killed. 'Yo homie, why you down with that gun, man, I got a great watch right' *BLAM!*

Streetwise (Wis /Cha )
Streetwise is the definitive skill for getting along in both the big
city and criminal underworld. This skill is used to access the black
market, bribe people outside organizations, gamble, and haggle.
Streetwise is common to gangsters, cops, street urchins, and anyone
else who spends a good deal of time in cities.
Combat Actions: None.
Dramatic Conflict: None.
Sample Knowledge: Districts, police, crime, and merchandise
common in most cities; street personalities common in each specific
city; hideouts and smuggling routes.

Again, look in a dictionary, or even how the term 'urban' has previously been used in the game.

For its own purposes Canada has chosen a very poor definition of 'urban area' much like Congress terming ketchup or tomato as a vegetable. You are attempting sophistry, and perhaps obfuscation, though amusingly.

The Auld Grump

[TheAuldGrump]

Now we have achieved 'great minds' moment - because I look at that terrain list and I too think, "what about plains"

And them my brain seizes up trying to of something cool to do with 200 miles of flat in all directions . Tap for white mana maybe?

Also my behind a barn comment wasn't entirely facetious. It's urban... I guess. For lack of a better classification that's the best fit. Given the "what is within 10' of me model, the walls and fence are structure enough to make it work in my book. Real live cropland gets hazy even to me.

I'm looking at adding maybe a couple more in light of the exploration theme of Farthest Star. Ruins maybe. Blasted (torturous terrain not found on Earth except in the most rugged of places like "Craters of the Moon, Idaho"). Out in the Black.

Perhaps the trick is to make some terrain less specialized - Badlands instead of Blasted comes to mind. Ruins would be useful in the fantasy themed settings as well (spelled 'd u n g e o n s').

You know, I just remembered the Roger Moore James Bond having troubles when dealing with a rural cop - perhaps he too thought that Streetwise was the right skill for the job? 

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Consolidated two posts.

The Auld Grump

[Morgenstern]

I dunno. Some of the most sophisticated and urbane people on Earth are expert hagglers. That's the Streetwise skill, not the inner-city cultures focus .

And Movie Bond is an Impress monkey rather than a Streetwise poster-child in my book . Man's incompetent when it comes to the art of the deal.

As to terms, and wiki-definitions, I was mostly pointing to the singular quality of the first passage was the presence of man-made structures. That's probably the key guiding light in the whole process of this thread - "urban terrain", as the place where the Urban Training feat and facets of the Springing feats kick in, is keyed primarily to the presence of man-made structures.

*ponder* I could proably be convinced to separate the 'developed landscape' with commas, but the structures thing really has to stay in the definition of the terrain type.

[TheAuldGrump]

I dunno. Some of the most sophisticated and urbane people on Earth are expert hagglers. That's the Streetwise skill, not the inner-city cultures focus .

And Movie Bond is an Impress monkey rather than a Streetwise poster-child in my book . Man's incompetent when it comes to the deal.

As to terms, and wiki-definitions, I was mostly pointing to the singular quality of the first passage was the presence of man-made structures. That's probably the key guiding light in the whole process of this thread - "urban terrain", as the place where the Urban Training feat and facets of the Springing feats kick in, is keyed primarily to the presence of man-made structures.

Hmmm, I might argue that Haggle really belongs under more than one skill (and have run it that way in my own games), but really we are arguing definitions here. Have the terms been defined anywhere in the Spycraft rules? As I said, all times Urban has been used in the game it has been in regards, specifically, to the city.

Given the nature of the feat perhaps we need to look at the military's Urban Training? A subject that I am sadly behind the times on. Though a quick Google reveals that so is the military.... House to house fighting is not much fun for the attacker, and given the number of civilian casualties not much fun for the defender either.

I think that the game assumes that Agent Smith will be avoiding both Mayberry and Sheriff Taylor. The countryside and small towns are undefined because there is an underlying assumption that the game will not be taking place there - it is neither exciting nor exotic. After all, the flying saucer never crashes at Grover's Mill, New Jersey, does it?

I think that a Rural Training (Rural Upbringing?) feat of some flavor is needed, then we can change the line to 'Urban or Rural terrain' and have done, both of us walking away, secure in the knowledge that we have won the argument.

The Auld Grump

[Mister Andersen]

Of course it is possible that some terrains just wouldn't have specialized training. The default rolling farmland as an example - it is open. It is flat. It is kind of boring, really. Dull, dull, dull, dull. That cow is looking at me funny. And I have no cover! I am going over to that nice safe stand of trees over there. I just realized that isn't a cow. It's a bull. And it is coming this way....

If we're talking about oxymoronic antonyms, I've always been struck by the logical break of Desert Training covering not only deserts (geographical locations defined by their general aridity and lack of water) but also plains, tundra, veldt and savanna - and the vastly over-watered expanse that is rolling farmland.

While I can see that Desert has been used synonymously with Flat, given that you've already broken tree-heavy terrain into Forest and Jungle, I'd be tempted rename the Desert Training feat to Plains Training, and shunt familiarity with actual desert environments over to the aforementioned Badlands Training.

[Morgenstern]

Ah. Yeah, I guess plains are mentioned in the Desert Training feat - as a seperate terrain type. Re-reading it I do recall a process of grouping together pairs to get the number of terrain training feats down to a reasonable number - even at their current number they are dangerously situational. It's part of the reason most of them include benefits that aply outside of their primary niche. I'd forgotten Plains was a defined terrain type - the full list is seen in table 5.1.

Desert is not synonymous with flat, the Desert Training feat just includes two terrain types that tend towards it. As a regular visitor to the California high desert, my mental picture of "desert" is pretty rocky with numerous stoney ridges.

[Morgenstern]

I think that a Rural Training (Rural Upbringing?) feat of some flavor is needed, then we can change the line to 'Urban or Rural terrain' and have done, both of us walking away, secure in the knowledge that we have won the argument.

Well, having been reminded there is a Plains category, I think cropland mostly writes itself at this point . "Urban terrain" is pretty much structures and pavement. Which narrows it down nicely to what I wanted the Springing feats to get their extra kick around to begin with.

Arguement? Discussion I should think - having to test and support concepts helps sharpen them. Writing a general description of terrain types (and their crucial handmaiden, Rule 0), will be easier after this.

[Mister Andersen]

Re-reading it I do recall a process of grouping together pairs to get the number of terrain training feats down to a reasonable number - even at their current number they are dangerously situational. It's part of the reason most of them include benefits that aply outside of their primary niche. I'd forgotten Plains was a defined terrain type - the full list is seen in table 5.1.

Which kinda makes me wonder why you split Forest and Jungle?

Desert is not synonymous with flat, the Desert Training feat just includes two terrain types that tend towards it. As a regular visitor to the California high desert, my mental picture of "desert" is pretty rocky with numerous stoney ridges.

The synonymity comes from what it's been paired with in the feat. If you're including all those mesas and such in "desert", what makes "Badlands" distinct enough to warrant its own feat? Given you example of the forest lodge or the barn I'd definitely classify ruins as covered by Urban.

The only two environments that stand out as needing training feats are Subterranean, and its antithesis Vacuum (which would include a proficiency with microgravity and logically covers the aforemented "Blasted" descriptor such as the surface of airless planetoids)

[Morgenstern]

Re-reading it I do recall a process of grouping together pairs to get the number of terrain training feats down to a reasonable number - even at their current number they are dangerously situational. It's part of the reason most of them include benefits that aply outside of their primary niche. I'd forgotten Plains was a defined terrain type - the full list is seen in table 5.1.

Which kinda makes me wonder why you split Forest and Jungle?

Seemed like a good idea at the time ? Mostly it seemed like there would be enough going on in each to make them of sufficient value as spearate options. Desert also seemed reasonably stand-alone and action packed, but could carry Plains, which was, as has been noted, kinda borring. Aquatic does have two 1st eddition terrains tied up in it, they just aren't obvious.

If you're including all those mesas and such in "desert", what makes "Badlands" distinct enough to warrant its own feat?

Unearthly terrain, literally. Lava comes to mind. Badlands is a nice name, but its not for the badlands you find around here . My inability to fully articulate the thought is a big part of why it's only potential at this point. I can see it out of the corner of my eye though. Its a little like looking at Jovian cloudscapes and wondering if that's gonna be a compelling backdrop.

Given you example of the forest lodge or the barn I'd definitely classify ruins as covered by Urban.

The distinction in Farthest Star would be a) crumbling and b) not man-made. Hmm. Maybe some odd overlap between (xeno)cultures and urban.

The only two environments that stand out as needing training feats are Subterranean

Yes, a fairly strong contender. In Farthest Star it comes up a fair amount in asteroid habitats and mining - which is where most of the Ghostships were found, making it a high priority skill-set for the modern tomb robber.

and its antithesis Vacuum (which would include a proficiency with microgravity and logically covers the aforemented "Blasted" descriptor such as the surface of airless planetoids)

Both vacuum and mircro-gravity I see as conditions layered over other terrain types - likely worthy of Terrain feats that address them, but not the sort of things that get their own entries on table 5.1. Subteranean/Vaults/Dungeon has some relevance to that table. My "Out in the Black" comment was a nod to the vague possibiliy that an open space Terrain feat of some sort might make an appearance. Odds are it'll end up being someting in the chase tree since ussually the most important part about being in free space is moving across it.