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Author Topic: Morg's Springing feat chain  (Read 10725 times)
Forcegypsy
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« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2007, 09:23:28 AM »

Some of the best fiction abuses english as determined by it's protectors. Intelligent wrangling of the language is expected from any competent practitioner. Terms and usage change from city to city and country to country. Professional usage of English is even stranger. As long as we aren't venturing into ad-speak territory or Oceanic neo-speech, I'm cool with broadening specialized terms for hobby purposes. Scott can get by under the professional usage waiver.

As for suburbia and urban. Really we're talking about the difference between large cities and small cities. Most of the population of my country lives in cities of various sizes and development levels. There is however, a vast amount of open undeveloped space that bears no resemblance to urban anything.

Possibly off-topic, here's a link to a man who laughs at parkour enthusiasts who think they have l337 skillza.  Speed Free Climbing. Ya. Is Cool.

That may have synergies with Parkour, but I'm comfortable saying that it is a discipline all its own. If there are convenient right angle surfaces and ledges there I fail to see them. Parkouristes depend on man-made structures to do what they do in a fluid and continuous fashion; to move unhindered by broken man-made terrain, to stray off the walkway unto the rooftop and down the wall, over the drainage pipe through the window, all without breaking stride.

Note: the examples posted of free-running in natural spaces failed to impress, sorry. The best example I've seen of that was a video that incorporated a city-park into a parkour exhibition (can't find it at the moment). Natural spaces reduce the Parkouristes'  advantages IMO, they aren't nearly as impressive there.
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« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2007, 09:40:59 AM »

Talking with my roommate, I'm finding some amusing bits about terrain. The 10' cube of 'what is right here?' is really important to how I would make the call.

[snip] (many useful examples)[/snip]

Same place 40 years later after it's been decided to let the city sink.
Really good candidate for swamp. Might have some urban patches sprinkled in it.

Central Park, New York, today.
Probably a mix of mostly Urban Training folks rule (lawns, playgrounds, trails, gardens) and some areas that I'd let Forest Training folks work their magic in.

None of this is hard and fast, but it's how I'd be making calls as a GC with the goal of giving player characters (and NPCs) with terrain sensitive abilities a fair shot at bringing them into play.


Shadowrun. If you were the GM, this stuff had to be judged constantly. The 3m rule (what, I prefer metric like most of the rest of the civilized world, sue me Grin) is a good one IMO. You could push it to 10m (~30', happy now? *grin*) and take care of the most common half-action move distance for spycraft characters. Only have to deal with one terrain per half-action, not that I'm advocating any such minutia be formally added to the game. Just useful information for Controls to make their rulings.
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« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2007, 09:56:36 AM »

-snip-
For its own purposes Canada has chosen a very poor definition of 'urban area' much like Congress terming ketchup or tomato as a vegetable. You are attempting sophistry, and perhaps obfuscation, though amusingly.

The Auld Grump

Amused as I was by the illustration of the streetwise vs. good 'ol boy encounter, I must cry foul. Canada, uses the above mentioned definition of urban for useful and specific reasons pertaining to population density and socio-political administration. Morgenstern may have been running afield a tad to illustrate his point (that certain terms are not as rigid as they at first may seem), but he is still clearly comparing apples to apples. Much like the term 'city', geographic and cultural/legal differences build up a large store of wiggle room. 

eta: ick, 3 posts in a row looks ugly. I was commenting as I moved through the thread. *shrug* It's what happens when I only post at the beginning of the day. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 10:01:00 AM by Forcegypsy » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2007, 09:57:41 AM »

Possibly off-topic, here's a link to a man who laughs at parkour enthusiasts who think they have l337 skillza.  Speed Free Climbing. Ya. Is Cool.

Holy... Shocked Colour me impressed.
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« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2007, 10:16:12 AM »

Possibly off-topic, here's a link to a man who laughs at parkour enthusiasts who think they have l337 skillza.  Speed Free Climbing. Ya. Is Cool.

Holy... Shocked Colour me impressed.

Totally. The things my fellow human beings can do with the proper levels of talent/training/dedication will never cease to amaze me.

Here's another link to an illustration of Morg's feat chain. Impressive in it's own way even though it's a commercial. You gotta admit, there's a really cool energy that parkouristes impart to the viewer. These guys 'hack' movement through urban (don't hit me *raises hands defensively*) spaces. The french rap is just a bonus Cheesy. Looking a the familiar in new ways is always refreshing.

Parkour Commercial
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« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2007, 10:53:15 AM »

Now we have achieved 'great minds' moment - because I look at that terrain list and I too think, "what about plains"

And them my brain seizes up trying to of something cool to do with 200 miles of flat in all directions Tongue. Tap for white mana maybe?

I'd wager a Sneak/Hide bonus is in order. It takes real training to slink away in that environment.

Might also warrant an overland speed bonus of some kind. A specialized version of forced charge.

Navigation bonus?
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« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2007, 10:58:10 AM »

Hmmm, I might argue that Haggle really belongs under more than one skill

Ah, but one of the cornerstones of the Spycraft 2.0 system is one skill per task. We worked very hard to create hard divisions there to avoid "debate" over the correct skill for any given task.
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« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2007, 11:08:23 AM »

Now we have achieved 'great minds' moment - because I look at that terrain list and I too think, "what about plains"

And them my brain seizes up trying to of something cool to do with 200 miles of flat in all directions Tongue. Tap for white mana maybe?

I'd wager a Sneak/Hide bonus is in order. It takes real training to slink away in that environment.

Might also warrant an overland speed bonus of some kind. A specialized version of forced charge.

Navigation bonus?

First accept that 'flat' is just an illusion. The midwest is not a parking lot, although to the casual eye it may seem so. As I understand it, great plains indians took advantage of this fact and the terrain blindness of the new immigrants unused to such unbroken vistas. Something the size of a man, or even a man and a horse, given the right knowledge of the terrain, can be surprisingly difficult to find especially if the searcher is thinking how impossible it is to hide in a 'flat' area.

Folds in the landscape, rivulets, tall-grass that appears short at distance...I'm sure you guys can think of something.
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« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2007, 12:58:15 PM »

Possibly off-topic, here's a link to a man who laughs at parkour enthusiasts who think they have l337 skillza.  Speed Free Climbing. Ya. Is Cool.

Heh. Can you say Spider chain? I know I can.

Springing has to fit within the space provided between the Equilibrium chain (which includes things like ignoring any drop of 20 feet or less and which handles a LOT of parkour actions) and the Spider chain which does a lot of the going upwards stuff. Revising Springing Basics to have a modifier based on number of Covert feats was a good first step because both of those other chains use similar tricks. That new focus on speed is helping it offer a unique set of advantages matching the flavor of the examples.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 01:19:52 PM by Morgenstern » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2007, 01:45:23 PM »

Just to refresh, the Plains Training feat we do have provides Survival bonuses (find food and shelter, track, animal riding on that surface), navigation bonus, surprise check bonus (offensive and defensive, any type of surprise), ambush bonuses (hide in place and strike from tactical advantage), and increased overland speed/reduced travel times.

It comes packaged with the same benefits in any desert, plus reduced need for water and 5 points of heat resistance. All for 1 feat. The combined package takes it's name from the more exotic Desert facet of it's benefits.

Other "Terrain Training" feats that have overlaping benefits relevent to Plains terrain include:
Arctic Training - bonus to acrobatics/balance checks on any natural surface.
Jungle Training - bonus to Sneak//hide in any non-urban terrain.
Mountain Training - bonus to Athletics/Climb on any natural surface.
Swamp training - bonus to hearing checks and poison saves.

The later set of benefits could have been replicated into each and every terrain training feat, but a deliberate effort was made to split them up so a character with multiple terrain feats would experience synergistic growth - that one feat was not the end-all-be-all choice for that terrain, with each additional terrain training feat being reduced to "Meh. Same stuff, different place."
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« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2007, 08:09:13 PM »

-snip-
For its own purposes Canada has chosen a very poor definition of 'urban area' much like Congress terming ketchup or tomato as a vegetable. You are attempting sophistry, and perhaps obfuscation, though amusingly.

The Auld Grump

Amused as I was by the illustration of the streetwise vs. good 'ol boy encounter, I must cry foul. Canada, uses the above mentioned definition of urban for useful and specific reasons pertaining to population density and socio-political administration. Morgenstern may have been running afield a tad to illustrate his point (that certain terms are not as rigid as they at first may seem), but he is still clearly comparing apples to apples. Much like the term 'city', geographic and cultural/legal differences build up a large store of wiggle room. 

eta: ick, 3 posts in a row looks ugly. I was commenting as I moved through the thread. *shrug* It's what happens when I only post at the beginning of the day. Sorry.
And the U.S. chose to term both ketchup and tomatoes as vegetables for 'useful and specific'  reasons that were just as good (and just as bad). I could let you look it up, but I won't. Tomatoes were deemed a vegetable by the Supreme Court because vegetables were taxable while fruit were not - because they wanted to get their hands on those tax funds congress decided to define 'vegetables' by which portion of the meal they were traditionally eaten during. Fruit were eaten either before the meal proper, or as a dessert. Tomatoes are served either as a dish, as accents to a dish, or as a sauce - therefor they are not fruit.  Roll Eyes

The ketchup boondoggle on the other hand was a first step in reworking how school lunches were served, in an effort to curb the amount of waste. The rules required that school lunches include one vegetable in every serving - a child could choose between vegetables if more than one was available, but had to choose a vegetable. Many kids didn't eat that vegetable, so it was wasted. To curb this they decided to define ketchup as a vegetable, thus allowing the kid to skip a veg he was only going to waste anyway.

After pubic outcry they just decided to let the kids skip the vegs if they really didn't want any.

I distrust things when governments try to redefine words to suit their needs of the moment. Canada did so because of tax revenue disbursement, as the U.S. chose to redefine vegetable.

Hmmm, I might argue that Haggle really belongs under more than one skill

Ah, but one of the cornerstones of the Spycraft 2.0 system is one skill per task. We worked very hard to create hard divisions there to avoid "debate" over the correct skill for any given task.
Again, I might argue that it was put under the wrong skill. While it makes sense that a person with Streetwise would be able to haggle it does not make sense that haggling in general be linked to streetwise.

Of course it could just be turned upside down - Haggle might be the skill, Streetwise one of the tasks.... You can bargain anywhere from the streets of Los Angeles, to a market in Calcutta, to the Farmer's Coop in Huron, Kansas. Streetwise would be the check for finding the folks to bargain with when looking for those 'hard to find' items. Tongue

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« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2007, 08:35:32 PM »

Hmmm, I might argue that Haggle really belongs under more than one skill

Ah, but one of the cornerstones of the Spycraft 2.0 system is one skill per task. We worked very hard to create hard divisions there to avoid "debate" over the correct skill for any given task.

Okay, but what of Bribe then? I like bribe being both under streetwise and bureaucracy... it makes sense and gives you a way to differentiate suits who know how to "work the system" from folks with friends in low places.

Not that I am personally concerned about haggling. In modern western culture, streetwise works. In different situations... in high stakes negotiations, networking is the go-to skill. In other cultures where fluid prices are more common, erm, cultures might work.
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« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2007, 02:24:28 AM »

Resolve already gives synergy to Acrobatics/Balance?

I was thinking that in situations like this where a skill already supplies a synergy bonus, why not let the character use their total skill bonus rather than just their skill ranks?
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« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2007, 08:49:38 AM »

-snip-
For its own purposes Canada has chosen a very poor definition of 'urban area' much like Congress terming ketchup or tomato as a vegetable. You are attempting sophistry, and perhaps obfuscation, though amusingly.

The Auld Grump

Amused as I was by the illustration of the streetwise vs. good 'ol boy encounter, I must cry foul. Canada, uses the above mentioned definition of urban for useful and specific reasons pertaining to population density and socio-political administration. Morgenstern may have been running afield a tad to illustrate his point (that certain terms are not as rigid as they at first may seem), but he is still clearly comparing apples to apples. Much like the term 'city', geographic and cultural/legal differences build up a large store of wiggle room. 

eta: ick, 3 posts in a row looks ugly. I was commenting as I moved through the thread. *shrug* It's what happens when I only post at the beginning of the day. Sorry.
And the U.S. chose to term both ketchup and tomatoes as vegetables for 'useful and specific'  reasons that were just as good (and just as bad). I could let you look it up, but I won't. Tomatoes were deemed a vegetable by the Supreme Court because vegetables were taxable while fruit were not - because they wanted to get their hands on those tax funds congress decided to define 'vegetables' by which portion of the meal they were traditionally eaten during. Fruit were eaten either before the meal proper, or as a dessert. Tomatoes are served either as a dish, as accents to a dish, or as a sauce - therefor they are not fruit.  Roll Eyes -snip-

Nah, these aren't the same situation at all. There is no internationally or if you will scientific or pan-english definition of city that the Canadian government changed to suit its purposes. I'm looking for the universal English terms guide and unfortunately all I find is English: Canadian, English: American, English: English...(U.K.) Tongue. The proper rules of grammar are generally understood among all English speaking peoples. Beyond that, and especially when dealing with specific terms, things get wiggly. There is no nefarious government purpose here. In England, Canada and the U.S the use of the word urban or city while generally understood, specifically means different things.

Quote from: Wikipedia (I know, but this is easily verifiable)
The difference between towns and cities

The difference between towns and cities is differently understood in different parts of the English speaking world. There is no one standard international definition of a city: the term may be used either for a town possessing city status; for an urban locality exceeding an arbitrary population size; for a town dominating other towns with particular regional economic or administrative significance. Although city can refer to an agglomeration including suburban and satellite areas, the term is not usually applied to a conurbation (cluster) of distinct urban places, nor for a wider metropolitan area including more than one city, each acting as a focus for parts of the area.

I, however, can't speak to the tomatoes and ketchup situation. That indeed sounds squirrelly Huh? . Not the same situation, although to be fair, a zucchini, cucumber and tomato are properly all fruits even though many think of them as vegetables, despite the rulings of your courts or congress as the case may be.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 09:09:11 AM by Forcegypsy » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2007, 12:24:24 PM »


Ah, but one of the cornerstones of the Spycraft 2.0 system is one skill per task. We worked very hard to create hard divisions there to avoid "debate" over the correct skill for any given task.

Okay, but what of Bribe then? I like bribe being both under streetwise and bureaucracy... it makes sense and gives you a way to differentiate suits who know how to "work the system" from folks with friends in low places.

Bribe was a point of contention during design (technically, so was Streetwise), and the ultimate presentation was a compromise. I was and still am against the Bribe split, and don't believe it should be used as the basis for further dilution. Ultimately, one of the reasons the skill system is built so rigidly is that it allows GCs to - in our minds - more easily modify it. When you know exactly where each check is, what it does, and how, you can shift checks from one skill to another quite easily, mixing and matching to get your favored scheme. Those who want to move Haggle can. Just apply the new skill ranks and key attribute(s) and you're done.

Heck, with the example Bribe sets, you could even split another skill or two if you're so inclined. So you could have your multi-skill Haggle rule. We won't go there, though, because we feel it's too complicated.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 12:43:24 PM by Crafty_Pat » Logged

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