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Author Topic: Morg's Springing feat chain  (Read 10531 times)
foproy
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2007, 11:32:06 PM »

you can house rule them otherwise. you are not forced to go by the book on every little detail, some people my self included may think a little different. diving into a drain pipe and a natural crevice of any type are totally different, drainpipes maintain the same diameter and size through, a rock formation will not. also there are no straight lines in nature, no truly flat surfaces and thus to accurately rebound off a tree trunk or other natural surface one must use different and likely more complex techniques to do so.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 12:24:17 AM »

Hmmm. Would developed terrain be a better term. I get Antilles' confusion here. In terms of categories, most of us probably think of Urban/Suburban/Rural.

*shrug* There's not a Rainforest Training, or Steppe Training, or Deep Sea Training feat, but it's apparent they are part of other regions that do have 'by name' feats in the same sense that characters with Soldier are not automatically members of national armed forces - we chose a single, specific, and evocative name for things, but as a game term the name is rarely the LIMIT of what it can be applied to. I see no difference in this case. "Developed" takes just as much explaination -if not more- than just saying "urban".

Player: "You've got a Terrain feat for hunting lodges?"
GC: "Just go with 'Urban'."
Player: "Oh. It's for buildings. Got it."
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 12:35:20 AM »

To my thinking Parkour and such is absolutely an urban phenomena - it's based on the 'clutter' of human spaces and an ability to break typical pre-conceived notions of the pathways that exist in that space. Everybody looks at a steep hillside in roughly the same way. The Parkour master looks at a steep pile of trash in a different way than most people do Smiley. That and most urban surfaces are ridiculously over-enginered: smooth, hard, uniform dimensions, resistant to crumbling, unlikely to shift under human weight-loading, minimal cutting edges, virtually no piercing threats, vertical separation only slightly greater than a human body length, clear sight-lines, etc.

There was some interesting parkour bits in Live Free or Die Hard. It really is working it's way into the Hollywood stunt lexicon.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 12:37:15 AM by Morgenstern » Logged

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TheAuldGrump
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 12:44:23 AM »

Hmmm. Would developed terrain be a better term. I get Antilles' confusion here. In terms of categories, most of us probably think of Urban/Suburban/Rural.

*shrug* There's not a Rainforest Training, or Steppe Training, or Deep Sea Training feat, but it's apparent they are part of other regions that do have 'by name' feats in the same sense that characters with Soldier are not automatically members of national armed forces - we chose a single, specific, and evocative name for things, but as a game term the name is rarely the LIMIT of what it can be applied to. I see no difference in this case. "Developed" takes just as much explaination -if not more- than just saying "urban".

Player: "You've got a Terrain feat for hunting lodges?"
GC: "Just go with 'Urban'."
Player: "Oh. It's for buildings. Got it."

Perhaps 'choose a terrain type covered by a previously chosen terrain feat' and ending with 'this feat may be taken several times, each time covering a different terrain' might work better - while allowing flexibility it still defines the circumstances governing the feats' uses. I for one do find the difference between 'urban' and 'developed' quite noticeable - and if 'urban' was the description given I would not allow its use in the hunting lodge - by its nature a rural location. It would require more explanation, and redefining the word urban to work.

I am not sure that it really needs to be limited to an artificially developed terrain to function. Think of Tarzan moving relentlessly through the jungle, using all terrain to his advantage while moving. (Tree to vine to branch to rock to vine to hippo's back and jump across the river....') I have always thought that the movies underplayed Tarzan's mobility.

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foproy
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 01:19:05 AM »

it is still a separate discipline than that of being in a city. it is like putting a judo master in a boxing match.
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2007, 02:10:59 AM »

is it just me, or are we just clutching at straws here.  Simply put, its the GC's call.... if they want it to apply everywhere they can.  Otherwise when the feats are taken in the first place, the character can decide whether it applies to urban or rural environments... pretty simple to me...

another good example of Parkour/Free Running is in the new Bond film, Casino Royale.
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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2007, 02:32:50 AM »

it is still a separate discipline than that of being in a city. it is like putting a judo master in a boxing match.

True, but to draw an analogy, sneaking though swampland would be a separate discipline than sneaking through an office building.  The Ghost chain doesn't differentiate between those situations, though.  Just like the Spider chain doesn't care if you're scaling a rock face or a skyscraper.  In all of these cases, the fundamentals of the activity are the same, with only key details varying by the specific environment in which you're performing them.

To paraphrase the Martial Arts Styles sidebar in the Unarmed Combat Feats section:
"Because many, many different real world [free-running] moves are grouped into [Balance checks], [Jump checks], [Maneuver checks], and [Tumble checks], it's important to remember that not every move requires a unique mechanic."

Locking the activity down to specific setting doesn't just complicate things, it does so needlessly.  We don't need separate feat chains to distinguish between urban Parkour and Tarzan's jungle striding, or any other high-mobility, surface-maximizing, gravity-sidestepping style of movement.  The one feat chain gives us all the tools we need to capture the essence of the thing in any environment, while our imaginations and common sense are more than enough to fill in the blanks.  This is not a problem that needs to be solved with rules.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2007, 02:59:36 AM »

Quote from: TheAuldGrump
Think of Tarzan moving relentlessly through the jungle, using all terrain to his advantage while moving. (Tree to vine to branch to rock to vine to hippo's back and jump across the river....') I have always thought that the movies underplayed Tarzan's mobility.

Myself, I was picturing the Anakin/Ventris fight on Yavin IV in the clone wars cartoon - the bit before they hit the temple.
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2007, 04:28:15 AM »

While many feats do not distinguish between terain types where an activity is performed, some do, and I consider this activity to be very context sensitive. The Ghost chain and the Spider chain are intended as generic skill bumps. This one was designed with a very particular activity in mind and it is of more limited scope while delivering what I feel is appropriate power within that scope. For a more general Acrobatics character as happy in a swamp as a 30 story building, go with the Equilibrium chain.

Yup, Tarzan had great mobility, and in a long range sense, that's already in the Jungle Training feat. This chain is not trying to model braciation as a mode of travel.

I'm also pondering where to put a clarification about what consitutes "Urban terrain" because every mention of it in the book was written with my understanding of the concept as a game term in mind Smiley.
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2007, 04:45:43 AM »

I for one do find the difference between 'urban' and 'developed' quite noticeable - and if 'urban' was the description given I would not allow its use in the hunting lodge - by its nature a rural location. It would require more explanation, and redefining the word urban to work.

What really puzzles me is that anyone thought Forest Training worked inside (or even imediately around) a cabin. I mean functionally a cabin is the same place and has the same kinds of nooks and cranies you'd capitalize on in an ambush be it in a forest, swamp, jungle, or mountainside. So to me its clearly NOT any of those terrain types - otherwise you'd end up with this rustic dimensional nexus where every terrain feat applied. It's got a rug and doors. That says same kind of space as a house, office building, ect. and therefore the ambush feat of choice is going to be Urban Trainning. No biggie. I'll do a clarification for the point Smiley.

There is no "Rural Training", because down at 5-10 ft. scale where a lot of the game happens ther is no meaningful distinction between urban, suburban, and rural. Asphault with stoplights and asphault with stop signs is still a road. While "developed' is a nice general term and I'll probably use it in the clarification, it all uses of the game term 'Urban Terrain' (there appear to be 2 in the core book) are refering to man-made spaces in a general way.
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Mister Andersen
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2007, 07:49:01 AM »

Quote from: Morgenstern
Yup, Tarzan had great mobility, and in a long range sense, that's already in the Jungle Training feat. This chain is not trying to model braciation as a mode of travel.

Yet the fact that it can effortlessly be used to model movement in certain non-urban situations suggest that the chain needs to specify that it's valid for use in any sufficiently built-up environment

Quote
I'm also pondering where to put a clarification about what consitutes "Urban terrain" because every mention of it in the book was written with my understanding of the concept as a game term in mind Smiley.

Errata? It's where you specified that Night wasn't a terrain type.
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Crafty_Alex
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2007, 11:41:24 AM »

Gods, no. NOT in errata. I was discussing a product with Morg on Friday that might clarify this, but Rule Zero DEFINATELY comes to the fore when defining location and terrain type - there's simply too many variables for us to concisely and meaningfully errata this definition. Errata is for problems, not to answer minutae Smiley
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foproy
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2007, 11:45:12 AM »

i think this video is a extremely good example of that feat chain.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p310Y0tctr8
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2007, 11:47:59 AM »

Yet the fact that it can effortlessly be used to model movement in certain non-urban situations suggest that the chain needs to specify that it's valid for use in any sufficiently built-up environment

That a feat can be more powerful is in itself in no way a convincing argument that it should be Tongue.

While I can barely envision Tarzan 'springing' about the jungle (possibly brought on by the Disney movie, and I'm not sure I like where that image is taking me) it doesn't feel like that great of a match to me, because amongst other things the chain doesn't particularly cover brachiation. And those part of it that are all 'King of the Jungle' in my head (move through rough terrain freely) weren't tied to urban terrain in the feat anyway.

(The repeated attempts at modeling Lord Greystoke do suggest a whole different approach to doing Tarzan-type characters that I will mull over though. We'll see if anything cool comes of that Smiley.)

Until someone posts some deeply inspiring youtube footage or movie clip something, I'm going to continue to see freeruning as an urban phenomena. My suspense of disbelief is blown when I replace hard, smooth, flat metal railings with tree branches, and culvert pipes with rock chimneys in my mind's eye. It goes from 'damn, that took balls' directly to 'bullshit!' And as ussual, I find designing with flaws and limitation is the most important part of building the flavor and character of a concept. The much earlier statement "I wouldn't take that except in an all-city campaign" is actually a response I'm looking for. Thats a desirable reaction, because I'm trying to make a fairly strong but situational feat chain that enhances the already ubiquitous Equilibrium chain rather than suplanting it.
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Antilles
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2007, 11:59:25 AM »

I dunno, I still think the District B13 chase is the best use of parkour in a movie. No wonder though, the skinny dude running is apparently the guy who 'invented' parkour.
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