[Spycraft Poll] To Camp, or not to Camp?

[Crafty_Alex]

The debate has raged long and hard, since the beginning of Spycraft, of what level of "realism," "cinema," and "camp" are the best mix on the tabletop, and I find myself thinking about it a lot lately. Shadowforce Archer's divergence from "realistic" spy gaming of Spycraft made this contrast evident early on, and even now we see people talking about parts of World on Fire, which is far more "grounded" than Shadowforce Archer as if it's too goofy sometimes.

So for my own edification, I ask you - what's the right mix of camp and grit in a spy game? What do you play and/or prefer? Feel free to comment below.

[Bill Whitmore]

I chose "I like big cinematic action but a realistic world-feel - like the Bourne films" (isn't it awesome!  I could just copy and paste that )

I particularly like the team espionage aspect, more akin to the Mission Impossible TV series than the MI movie, Bond or Bourne.

Edit: Didn't mean to actually post yet, added more below.

The Bourne films are grounded enough in reality to make suspension of disbelief easier for me, but still action packed enough to be fun.

[VisualStatic]

I can't vote since there is no option for all of the above..

I guess for me it depends on my mood... some days give me Jake Bauer... others when I need it be more fun and light hearted, bring on Emma.

[TheAuldGrump]

Ummm, both extremes, depending on the mood that I'm in?

Even within a single setting it varies depending on the game - my espionage steampunk game was gritty, my ghostbustin' steampunk game is more Scooby Doo than Ludlum. (Also - the PCs in the Scoobypunk game are much nicer folks than the ones in the espionage game - running around doing good deeds....)

The Auld Grump, who wishes that he'd thought of the term 'Scoobypunk' much sooner....

[Agent 333]

I protest to the choices given that they're not all measuring the same axis of options. Do I want my action to be over-the-top-no-freaking-way-is-that-possible? Yes. Do I want it to come off as silly (which I think the term Camp implies)? HELL NO. For example of cinematics vs. campiness, I think the best source for examples is Silver Age comic books. Some silver age villains had the campiest motivations and plotlines ever, while others had genuinely good motivations and awesome evil plots.

In one early issue of Thor, Loki decides to spread chaos on earth... by flipping the colors of the world to a negative image! Bwahaha... nice going there Loki. That's Camp. But for pure cinematic action?

The Russian goverment tasks its top scientist with disrupting American arms production. That scientist then proceeds to build a device that completely shuts down productivity of the top arms manufacturer of the time until said manufacturer's personal security force stops the Russian agent. Sounds pretty cool, could be run in a realistic setting... till you realize that the Russian scientist is the (first) Crimson Dynamo, and the manufacturer's 'personal security force' is his armored alter-ego, Iron Man! Ok, that last part might seem a little campy (especially the way Iron Man wins the fight), but hey, the lead up was cinematic, and it's very possible to do in a less campy way.

[MilitiaJim]

I think we need a bigger band wagon or we're going to have to take two trips to haul all the venom.   

But yeah, camp =/= over the top action.  I am in favor of over the top action, but I really like that the crunch makes gritty an option.

[Krensky]

I too need an "all of the above" option.

Sometimes I want Avengers, sometimes I want Bond, sometimes I want Our Man Flint, other times I want Sneakers, and sometimes, occasionally, I want le Carré.

[Valentina]

I knee-jerk hate on Camp, but really that has more to do with it (when bad) being nonsensical then silly.
Like, basic Resident Evil tropes work -human experimentation, super-labs, boundless conspiracies run by psychotics. No problem.
But soon as STARS is earnestly depicted as an actual SWAT-style unit, as opposed to a bunch of raging fucktards, or that security systems are run smoothly with elaborate combinations of keys, crests, and switches or that Alexei is Alexis and she's a superbeing or that the president's half-wit slut daughter's been kidnapped and taken to greasy rural Spain
*blam*
I don't like the Avengers much, but I really don't like Charlie's Angels. The A's are kinda loopy, but the CA's are dead serious -and consequently god-awful. Exploding cow pats killing squires is ok. Wiping out a battalion of generic "highly trained military professionals" with the Ultimate Exploding Cow Pat is stupid.
Kinda like how Metal Gear Solid 1 was really awesome, but Twin Snakes (the Gamecube remake of MGS 1), couldn't resist bullet time cinemas and showing off and warping something sort of slyly campy into a dead serious dead brain cell festival.
Right. Sorry.
Anyway. I'm fine if there's a minimal amount of pocket dimension logic. But about the time Liquid Snake takes 2000 7.62mm rounds to the chest and keeps driving/screaming "Snaaaaaaake" I'm getting off the shortbus and taking my dice home.

Maybe it's the difference between suspension of disbelief and really having to tear my brain out logic centers first to get through the session.

Edit: Or maybe I'm totally failing to get it. Halp?

[MilitiaJim]

Maybe it's the difference between suspension of disbelief and really having to tear my brain out logic centers first to get through the session.

Edit: Or maybe I'm totally failing to get it. Halp?

No halp for you.  That's the best way I can think to put it.

It's all about plausibility and making things fit.  Sometimes you keep it "real" by requisitioning floating armor to go hit a boat.  Sometimes you stretch it by grabbing x-ray goggles, a flight belt, and an M-60 and being your own gunship.  And then there are times to just chuck it out the window by dressing up as firemen, bringing a truck that can turn into an attack chopper and using heavy weapons in a house on a quiet London street.

But they need to make sense at the time.  We don't have to fiddle the crunch at all to do any and all of these things right off the shelf.

[Crafty_Alex]

Note: I deliberately did NOT offer an "all of the above" because that's not the point of the exercise

I find it funny - though everyone says they generally dislike camp, the votes stray toward the campier/cinematic espionage than toward the gritty by a large margin. I see the need for the plausible, but it's interesting the preference is for plausible rather than realistic...

[gaghiel42]

With fun toys like the Proteus gadget.  I kinda need a little camp in there.  Of course, I'm the one that brought an RV/Main Battle Tank into the 10KB demo and when Pat blew its axle with an RPG, took the bullet proof windows and macguyvered them onto a pizza delivery truck to elude the hordes of gang members closing on us by ramping it off a fancy sports car...

That, and my fire truck that could Proteus into a helicopter.  That was good times too.

Now that being said, goofiness and things a la Austin Powers isn't near as much fun as just crazy over the top things like Commando/Under Siege/etc. 

[ahzad]

I like my spycraft with a bit of the unreal. Give me occult nazi sorcerers, undead, cthulhu cults, stargates and all that pulp influenced stuff and I'm extremely happy and running at my best b/c that's what I prefer. I also like my straight up spy stuff like spooks, or more of a military The Unit themed stuff as well, and can run that very well. It's just that I grew up with pulps, fell in love with the themes and stuff in them, so that stuff tends to creep into any modern-ish game I run unless I keep a very tight reign on it, but doing that I feel stifles my creativity and the games I run w/o those elements aren't quite as good as the others.

[NezMaster]

My first instinct was to go to the bond like feel, but I've realized very recently, that the sillier I get, the more my players seem to like it. I've held back heavily over  the years, but the players really dig the giant robot sharks, and endevor to create "tornado gun" devices and the like. The same is true in my other games. We used to be a very gritty group, where 'the story is all', but now I think we've seen all the stories I can write and are more into "the play is the thing" where we just sit around and get pretty goofy.
So my players push me towards avengers goofy, when my normal inclination is slightly darker.

[nfactor13]

I like my spycraft with a bit of the unreal. Give me occult nazi sorcerers, undead, cthulhu cults, stargates and all that pulp influenced stuff and I'm extremely happy and running at my best b/c that's what I prefer. I also like my straight up spy stuff like spooks, or more of a military The Unit themed stuff as well, and can run that very well. It's just that I grew up with pulps, fell in love with the themes and stuff in them, so that stuff tends to creep into any modern-ish game I run unless I keep a very tight reign on it, but doing that I feel stifles my creativity and the games I run w/o those elements aren't quite as good as the others.

Yeah, I would say without any sense of contradiction that even when I want to include extreme occult-type stuff, I want it to feel gritty, real, and authentic, even though that doesn't make any literal sense.
Imagine Smiley carefully mixing the powder to draw the magic circle.  'You have to say the incantation just right, y'know.  I remember one time in India...'

[MilitiaJim]

Over in the OT movie thread someone just said "don't bring up Doom."  I think Doom is a good example of how something went just wrong.  (The movie of course, not the games.)

We've already accepted some "impossible" things, demons and such.  But it breaks down in the details.  This is "da footcha," why are these guys carrying G-36s and pump action shot guns?  Flashlight batteries dieing?  Hello Pre Combat Checks.  New Batteries every mission.  If you're altering the horror matrix by throwing in guys who can throw down with the monsters, you need to be willing to let the flashlight dying cliche go too.

I am very happy with the Crafty balance as well as the options for more cinematic stunts and for making the world more dangerous.