Changes in Channeler Revised

[Krensky]

I took some time last night to read through both and thought I'd post my notes. Well, more accurately the one question I wound up with, the changes to the spell lists, and a issue.

Question:
All damage dealing spells have a threat of 20 now. Cool. I'm assuming this works like the old Ray tag: Threat + Action Die = Pain. My question is, does the Spellcasting BMS chain's threat increase apply to this, or only to the casting?

Spell list changes:
A number of spells were added and a few were removed or renamed. A number of the removals seems to be condensing all the 'mundane" weather control spells into the Weather Control chain, Mage Sword being dumped in favor of Spiritual Weapon II, etc. However, I am left confused why Flame blade and Whirlwind were removed.

Added: Circle of Warmth I, Circle of Warmth II, Live Wire, Rush, Polar Ray III, Gripping Cloud, Shout III, Wall of Blades, Spiritual Weapon II, Ride the Lightning II, Downdraft, Control Weather I, Control Weather II, Control Weather III, Control Weather IV, Control Weather V, Crystal Palace, Phoenix Egg, Storm of Vengeance    

Removed (Not renamed or replaced): Flame Blade, Whirlwind

Issue:
Why were the Threat and Error results stripped from the Spellcasting check? And Why was the Critical Success changed to a bonus from a discount? I really have a hard time seeing a player activating that threat with the new critical success benefit.

[Morgenstern]

I took some time last night to read through both and thought I'd post my notes. Well, more accurately the one question I wound up with, the changes to the spell lists, and a issue.

Question:
All damage dealing spells have a threat of 20 now. Cool. I'm assuming this works like the old Ray tag: Threat + Action Die = Pain. My question is, does the Spellcasting BMS chain's threat increase apply to this, or only to the casting?

Good catch. When a spell's distance line indicates the Spellcasting check results doubles as an attack check, the attack shares the Spellcasting check's threat range. Spellcasting Basics/Mastery/Supremacy does indeed make it easier to crit attack spells. We'll get that folded in.

However, I am left confused why Flame blade and Whirlwind were removed.

Flame blade was pulled because the 1st level was over populated with fiery attack spells and we wanted to give the Channeler slightly more versatility with a new defensive spell (Circle of Warmth). You'll be seeing flame blade again elsewhere.

Whirlwind (call out a tornado) was folded into Control Weather V. A more speciallized mini-tornado only spell might be seen again later.

Why were the Threat and Error results stripped from the Spellcasting check?

For "power" skills (like spellcasting and psionics and maybe the Use the Force if you look in the wiki), where a single check has dozens/hundreds of results it governed, we opted to slim down the checks to closer to a pass/fail arangment.

And Why was the Critical Success changed to a bonus from a discount? I really have a hard time seeing a player activating that threat with the new critical success benefit.

Hmm. I'm mulling that one.

[Krensky]

Good catch. When a spell's distance line indicates the Spellcasting check results doubles as an attack check, the attack shares the Spellcasting check's threat range. Spellcasting Basics/Mastery/Supremacy does indeed make it easier to crit attack spells. We'll get that folded in.

You might also want to clarify that attack is a keyword to the distance section. I had to reread it and this reply to see that attack was a keyword, rather then just a spell used to attack.

Flame blade was pulled because the 1st level was over populated with fiery attack spells and we wanted to give the Channeler slightly more versatility with a new defensive spell (Circle of Warmth). You'll be seeing flame blade again elsewhere.

Whirlwind (call out a tornado) was folded into Control Weather V. A more speciallized mini-tornado only spell might be seen again later.

Fair enough on Flame Blade, but Control Weather V doesn't replicate Whirlwind at all. Control Weather V makes a tornado and all that goes with it. Whirlwind made a small(ish) cyclone that tossed people a football field or two, not several miles. Whirlwind was the mini-tornado spell.

For "power" skills (like spellcasting and psionics and maybe the Use the Force if you look in the wiki), where a single check has dozens/hundreds of results it governed, we opted to slim down the checks to closer to a pass/fail arangment.

I'll need to think of something for the error the, since I assume with the new check you pay the casting cost even if it fails, based on the rewording of the check.

[Gentry]

And Why was the Critical Success changed to a bonus from a discount? I really have a hard time seeing a player activating that threat with the new critical success benefit.

You'd activate a critical in order to waste a mook or deal wounds to a special character.  The bonus to future skill checks is just an incidental bennie.  At least, that's the benefit I see.

Though I could see a feat that turns things back the way they were, for the spellcaster dedicated to efficiency in his craft.

[Krensky]

And Why was the Critical Success changed to a bonus from a discount? I really have a hard time seeing a player activating that threat with the new critical success benefit.

Hmm. I'm mulling that one.

You'd activate a critical in order to waste a mook or deal wounds to a special character.  The bonus to future skill checks is just an incidental bennie.  At least, that's the benefit I see.

Though I could see a feat that turns things back the way they were, for the spellcaster dedicated to efficiency in his craft.

And what about spells that aren't Attacks? Like Cone of Cold, or Mage Armor? Or spells that in typical use end a scene, like Teleport? Or that last spell of a scene? Players should have reasons to activate ANY threat they roll. Maybe not good reasons, or reasons that will compel them to activate it every time, but at the moment I don't think a lot of players will activate a threat on a non-Attack spell at all. I know mine won't.

[Gentry]

And what about spells that aren't Attacks? Like Cone of Cold, or Mage Armor? Or spells that in typical use end a scene, like Teleport? Or that last spell of a scene? Players should have reasons to activate ANY threat they roll. Maybe not good reasons, or reasons that will compel them to activate it every time, but at the moment I don't think a lot of players will activate a threat on a non-Attack spell at all. I know mine won't.

My GM's gut says that any spell that deals damage, with or without an attack keyword, and is in turn activated as a critical, kills mooks or deals wounds instead of vitality.  It's a big gut, though admittedly not infallible. 

As a house rule, my gut also tells me that spells that aid skill checks, when activated as a critical spellcasting success, would at the option of the player place the action die "on deposit", allowing a "free" critical activation on the skill check, should a threat be rolled during the spell's duration.

As a concept, I disagree that there should be a reason to activate every threat as a critical success.  Often there's no real in-game reason regardless of the rules' reasons, as the check result produced by rolling the 19 or 20 is often plenty high to accomplish whatever needs accomplishing, and there's often little or no need to produce a lingering effect by activating a critical.  That your players won't activate criticals on non-attack spells doesn't highlight any particular weakness in the system itself, to my mind.  Perhaps you just don't have creative enough players. 

[Morgenstern]

You might also want to clarify that attack is a keyword to the distance section. I had to reread it and this reply to see that attack was a keyword, rather then just a spell used to attack.

I think it will become apparent with use. We'll let it ride and see how that plays out.

Fair enough on Flame Blade, but Control Weather V doesn't replicate Whirlwind at all. Control Weather V makes a tornado and all that goes with it. Whirlwind made a small(ish) cyclone that tossed people a football field or two, not several miles. Whirlwind was the mini-tornado spell.

Which is why it might appear elsewhere. As you can see the spell table is now fully filled out. There are basically a number of slots available so that there is a clear point where I can stop and call it good when writing spells and whirlwind (by virtue of there being another spell available covering  the essential concept) was the last in line .

I'll need to think of something for the error the, since I assume with the new check you pay the casting cost even if it fails, based on the rewording of the check.

You pay the spell point cost every time, pass or fail. Check out the Channeler's Level 1 ability. For the most part he'll perform like before, but now he has something tangible to hold over Mages and other casters who get to pick spells from the entire library.

EDIT: Fixed Scott's open quote.

[Number Three]

In general, I am partial to the simplification, even if I miss some of the crunch that has been skimmed out of the system by Mastercraft.  For some reason, my attention was drawn toward the feats.

Removed

• Augmented Spells.  Maximize Spell trick folded into Potent Spells, Heighten Spell trick gone (too confusing/not worth it?)
• Sequential Learning.  Confusing even to some of us Spycraft players.  But on the back burner for a future release?

Changed

• Additional Subschool now Extra Discipline.  Prerequisites reduced, rolls off the tongue a lot better.
• Double Cast prerequisites drastically reduced.
• Hidden Spells Completely rewritten to account for new text in the Spellcasting Rules, no longer requires tricks or spell points to take effect (Mastercrafting.)
• Lasting Spell prerequisites drastically reduced.
• Potent Spells Empower Spell trick replaced by Maximize Spell (Mastercrafting?)

Almost forget - Added

• Casting Basics
• Casting Mastery
• Casting Supremacy

...to replace the Skill Mastery chain now that Spellcrafting is its own skill.

I understand that Crafty is leaning away from multiple trick taking with Mastercraft, and it does allow you to trim a lot of repeated text with the hobble tricks.  Was the metamagic spell pool really that confusing?  Should we expect a dearth of level prereq's in all things Crafty post Mastercraft?

I'm still waiting for the whole set to come out before I start reinstating crunch, because a lot of it has the potential for class abilities in the simplified system.

[Agent 333]

Sad to see Flame Blade go, I had a few characters that relied on it for melee pwnage. Though I suppose having entire character builds around a single first level spell might warrent some consideration...

[Morgenstern]

In general, I am partial to the simplification, even if I miss some of the crunch that has been skimmed out of the system by Mastercraft.  For some reason, my attention was drawn toward the feats.

That seems reasonable.

Augmented Spells.  Maximize Spell trick folded into Potent Spells, Heighten Spell trick gone (too confusing/not worth it?)

Empower spell and maximize spell were an instance where D&D got it very, very wrong. Empower was the stronger and yet it had a lower cost associated with it. They pair together are actually kinda redundant. We kept the one that was more balanced and easier to figure out and dumped the other one. Highten spell only really maters if you are worried about the spell being countered or suppressed. That's both rare and not terribly intuitive. Most likely there with eventually be a feat that ups the level of your spells for the purpose of countering or supression, and it will also always be in effect rather than formated as a trick. It's also good fodder for class abilities (A Firebender whose fire spells are at +3 level against being countered or suppressed).

Sequential Learning.  Confusing even to some of us Spycraft players.  But on the back burner for a future release?

That one failed on almost every front. It is confusing. If you figure it out it is way too powerful. It meant I had to spend far to much time looking over my own shoulder to make sure there were enough sequenced spells in each product to support its existance. Toss.

I understand that Crafty is leaning away from multiple trick taking with Mastercraft, and it does allow you to trim a lot of repeated text with the hobble tricks.  Was the metamagic spell pool really that confusing?

Not so much confusing as grossly verbose. It also lead to some power creep on casters vs. everyone else. Keep in mind in the SRD these spells increased the level, which effectively put an end to stacking metamagic on all but the lowest level effects. We brought the cost way, way down and allowed meta-magic/tricks to be used at a much lower level, but it created a situation were you could stack heaps of effects on a single spell and it didn't raise the dificulty, it just raised the SP cost which the feats were partially paying off just by virtue of having them. Channelers were pulling of some truely disgusting alpha strikes.

Should we expect a dearth of level prereq's in all things Crafty post Mastercraft?

Level prerequisites are still an arrow in the quiver for 2.0, but it'll come out only when I thnk it's critical. In general I'm happier with more feats being available throughout the play experience and appearing at tables of almost any level range. Most abilities do not inherently break the game - they wouldn't be good feats at any level if they were. Taking Double Cast early on is great - its shows a particular focus that is no les valid at level 3 than it is at level 15. In every case that feat was selected instead of some other fairly awesome alternatives, so it really says "yes, THAT is what I want." Bringing that into play sooner makes many character concepts possible earlier/at more tables.

I'm still waiting for the whole set to come out before I start reinstating crunch, because a lot of it has the potential for class abilities in the simplified system.

My feelingis the Archmage will be really cool, and we FINALLY cracked a problem we had with spellcasting Expert classes only being able to work with chracter who already had levels in a spellcasting base class (look closely at the Channeler level 1 ability...). The Fantasy Craft Alchemist is a spellcasting class you can enter without having been some sort of Mage first. That only became possible in the last month and is a lot stronger offering for having that tech.

[Morgenstern]

Sad to see Flame Blade go, I had a few characters that relied on it for melee pwnage. Though I suppose having entire character builds around a single first level spell might warrent some consideration...

It'll be back - in the hands of people who LIVE for extreme pwnage .

Stay tuned.

[Number Three]

Sad to see Flame Blade go, I had a few characters that relied on it for melee pwnage. Though I suppose having entire character builds around a single first level spell might warrent some consideration...

Spiritual Weapon I + Hobble Distance?