Author Topic: Mistborn  (Read 32373 times)

Jake

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2008, 10:34:57 PM »
Actually Bards and Fighters can be badass in D&D 3.5

I've seen fighters do great stuff.......but bards? I'd like to see a good Bard build.
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Morgenstern

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2008, 11:10:38 AM »
I am a big fan of Avatar: the Last Airbender, and one of the things I appreciate about it is that while the benders (mages) are front and center, every time you meet a non-bender character with a name, they proceed to kick the snot out of any bender that cross their path, ussually by virtue of having spent that same amount of time practicing their own non-magical brand of badassery. It's a bit like the Jedi vs Courtier discussion for Star Wars. You can have parity, you just have to go there design-wise.

Jedi: "I am a Jedi and the force is my ally..."

Courtier: "Hi. I own a planet. The whole thing. Ships, armies, and all. I'll be handing our travel arangments, good sir."

Keep in mind also, that the critical parity is not one of raw power, but of ability to contribute to the success of the story. There are LOTS of ways you can chip in on that without being all magic-y, even in the Final Empire ;D.
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Crafty_Pat

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2008, 02:41:07 PM »
My main hope is that we get a useable option to play someone who either by choice or birth, doesn't use magic.

Absolutely. It's a fundamental design goal. :)
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iconoplast

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2008, 03:47:03 PM »
Actually Bards and Fighters can be badass in D&D 3.5

I've seen fighters do great stuff.......but bards? I'd like to see a good Bard build.

You can concentrate on maxing out Inspire Courage and end up adding 12d6[Sonic] to all damage rolls from all your allies.  Which is pretty neat.

Bill Whitmore

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2008, 04:50:06 PM »
Bards are nasty in the D&D games I have played because we usually have groups of 8-10 players.  Any power that adds bonuses to everyone is awesome.  Do what Iconoplast said, with a lot of people and the bonuses are huge.

I know my fighter loves our bard.

I have an 11th level Fighter coupled with a level 11 Bard currently.  Our bard often uses Inspite Greatness (+2 competence to hit) on me and reifnorces his Inspire Courage with a spell (now +3 morale to hit and damge) to give me a total +5 to hit and + 3 to damage.  This is a to-hit bonus that rivals the Greater Magic Weapon of a 15th level wizard / sorcerer and still stacks with my other magic weapon bonuses.  My fighter's high AC, 2 handed weapon and Great Cleave let him wade into the middle of enemies and just lay waste to things.  If I ever fight something not heavily armored, that +5 to hit very easily converts to +10 damage which makes the Great Cleave just rock.  With Improved Crit, Power Critical and 3 attacks every round I am almost always breaking 120 damage on a hit every battle at least once, oftentimes more.

And it isn't just my fighter, everyone is benefitting from that +3.

The problem is, the Bard is not flashy.  The damage he causes isn't credited to him.  Everytime I hit, I add 3 to 39 (on a 5 point power attack crit) damage.  Every character in our group who hits adds at least 3 damage.  Every time someone misses by less than 3 you can credit the Bard with the hit being scored.

Next time I play that game, I need to keep a tally and give the bard credit for damage on any hit that would have missed without him and giving him credit for bonus damage he gave when the recipient would have hit anyways, just to see what kind of damage output he is really adding.  I have a feeling it will be pretty big, maybe bordering on huge.

Fireballs are fun, you can see the boom.  Blade barriers are nice and visual.  Harm lets you see the damage you are doing right up front.  Chain Lightning and Disintegrate let roll buckets of dice.  Bards make your entire party more deadly without the enemy even realizing it, as they chip away at them one attack roll at a time.
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Sletchman

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2008, 03:50:53 AM »
Actually Bards and Fighters can be badass in D&D 3.5

I've seen fighters do great stuff.......but bards? I'd like to see a good Bard build.

As well as what others have said, their spell list allows them to dominate the social scene, they can make a handy replacement / second rogue [especially with a single level rogue dip to allow them to actually remove the traps they find].  Their prestige options are both flavourful and in quite a few cases, extremely powerful [Massive sonic damage on all allied attacks, 9th level spells, significantly expanded musical options].

From a min/max perpsective, a higher level bard can grant his team an effectively unlimited true strike [I've seen bards grant +22 to hit from thier music at around 18th].  This is all attack rolls, including spells and ranged.

A Half-Elf bard with the first level racial substitution can opt to make alot of encounters a social encounter [which he then dominates].  While powerful, in DnD, this option won't make you any friends.

Oh and if your DM allows you to use just PHB, "Complete Arcane" and "Book of Exalted Deeds", you can have unlimited sorceror style spell casting up to 9th level... [But thats something no player should abuse, it wrecks the games fun]

We now return you to our regularily scheduled Mistborn broadcast.

My main hope is that we get a useable option to play someone who either by choice or birth, doesn't use magic.

Absolutely. It's a fundamental design goal. :)

And this is why I love you guys.

[And a quick nod to Morgs Jedi vs Courtier thing, thats precisely what I'm talking about.]

MilitiaJim

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2008, 11:37:12 AM »
So, back to the Mistborn "problem."  I don't think that Mistborn should be a class.  As we see with the few Mistborn we meet, they have different strengths among the metals. 

My current thought:  Break Allomancy into two skill checks, push and pull.  This won't matter to the Mistings, they get one more class skill, Mistborn will get two.  To cover the relative power differences among Mistborn, perhaps a tree of feats to specialize with a metal or with pulling/pushing.
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Agent 333

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2008, 09:27:36 PM »
I just finished the first book, and I have a few thoughts.

First: Does anyone else think that, if there were a movie based on the book, then Vin should be played by Summer Glau?

Second: I think Allomancers can be done as a combination of feats and skillpoint based powers, with Expert class support for Mistborn. Each speciality would have an entry level feat that that would give you access to that specialty's power skill, and some other related benefit. The Mistborn feat would give you access to the powers, but no other benefit. The feats would, of course, be all mutually exclusive. The Mistborn expert class might give you some benefits normally reserved for specialists, or possibly cool things that you can only do by combining powers. Atium (and gold, and the Eleventh Metal) wouldn't have associated powers, but rather they'd be high caliber picks only usable by Mistborn and have a stated, time limited effect. Hell, you could probably make atium available at all calibers, with a certain number of rounds per calibur (being balanced in that, one round of awesomeness in a whole mission isn't that great).

You know, they never actually specified that there aren't Misting's who can burn Atium or Gold (or Elventh metal), but I suppose if you were one you might never know because they're so rare...
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MilitiaJim

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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2008, 03:27:59 PM »
So I just finished the second book and am about drooling for the third.

One of the things that hadn't occurred to me is the snapping that makes Allomantic power(s) manifest.  I can see why from game balance Mistborn should be a class.  But it does suffer from some serious power creep, and a party of Mistborn would be ludicrously powerful.  They're gonna spend a LOT of time in the tiger cage.  Were it not impossible, I would suggest that Mistborn be like the Steel Inquisitors, and be NPCs.  (One of the nice spots of the snapping is that you don't have to be an Allomancer at character creation, ditto Mistborn.)

Is anyone else familiar with BESM d20?  Most specifically the section where they discuss the power imbalance among the D&D 3.0/3.5 character classes.  Like the Jedi that were mentioned, Mistborn suffer the same issue of being higher on the power scale than everyone else.
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
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Crafty_Alex

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2008, 03:40:25 PM »
The Snap is a key part of being a Mistborn. In Fantasy Craft, it'd need to be a Subplot reward, if anything. Making Mistborn an NPC only class, however, would be a mistake on the level of West End making Jedi unplayable in their early Star Wars products. The coolest characters in the book are Mistborn, and everyone's going to want to play them.

The trick is finding that balance between MB and the other options. It can be done - it may not be easy (we have lots of ideas already), but it can be done.
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Agent 333

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2008, 03:47:26 PM »
I'm not sure Mistborn are necessarily higher on the power scale than everyone else, but being a non-Allomancer combat character is just asking to get your but whipped in this setting. Even Hazekillers have to team up in squads to even challenge a Mistborn. But non-combat oriented characters seem to do fine without allomantic powers (like Dox and Elend).

Spoiler: show
Speaking of Elend... was I the only one that was dissapointed with him becoming a Mistborn at the end of book 2? It seemed kinda... unneccesary? I'll wait to read Book 3 before I pass too much judgement, but still...


Hey, I just thought of something: Do you guys get advanced copies of Book 3? Or do you have to wait another month like the rest of us?

EDIT: Also, will options be presented for different era's of play? Like, pre-Book 1, mid-Book 2, post-Book 3?

And will Feruchemists be playable too? They seem like they could potentially get a lot more broken than Mistborn in the hands of a clever player...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 03:50:15 PM by Agent 333 »
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Crafty_Pat

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2008, 03:58:50 PM »
Hey, I just thought of something: Do you guys get advanced copies of Book 3? Or do you have to wait another month like the rest of us?

We get copies. as for when they arrive, who can say?

Quote
EDIT: Also, will options be presented for different era's of play? Like, pre-Book 1, mid-Book 2, post-Book 3?

Too early to tell but at a glance I'd say probably.

Quote
And will Feruchemists be playable too? They seem like they could potentially get a lot more broken than Mistborn in the hands of a clever player...

Almost certainly, and every Crafty effort will be made to ensure they're as balanced as everything else.  ;)
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spinningdice

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2008, 05:45:45 AM »
Well, I've just finished book 1 - and waiting for 2 to arrive from Amazon.
I've been reading this thread, but avoiding any spoilers.
I must say this book had me gripped far more than any fantasy I've read in a good long time, I stayed up until about 3:00am in the morning to finish it once I got to the final run.
The thing that struck me most of the way through - is that this is how I imagined Fantasy Craft. There's a bit of an espionage feel, and despite the power of the mistborn it still feels very team-based.

I think to an extent the book's examples are poor for how a character should be, it says Kelsier was a prodigy even before snapping - so it's to be expected he's much better than a standard mistborn, plus Vin seems to have power that startles other mistborn.

Hazekillers work in teams to take down mistborn, so it must be possible, and these are simply standard NPCs (in SC terms) so I think it would be possible for a PC Hazekiller to take one down one-on-one, it's just not the focus of the extraodinary group of mistborn/lings in the book.

I think that viewed objectively, it should be possible to balance the classes - but acknowledge that the characcters are all high-level extroadinary examples of their type.

MilitiaJim

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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2008, 07:42:49 AM »
About that bit under the spoiler tag:  Maybe, but I can't be unhappy about it, and we'll see how things shake out in book 3.

Hazekillers definitely aren't a class.  They have Wolfpack feats and carry no metal, but that's about it.  I can see them making an appearance in the background and in the NPC sections. 

I hadn't really thought much about Feruchemistry.  I think that really boils down to the style of your campaign.  If it's a "standard" Spycraft campaign, with discreet missions and downtime between them, charging items would be easy.  In a more continuous "D&D type" campaign the charging will take some agreement between the player and the GM.

I wouldn't quite cry if Mistborn were NPC only, but I would be very sad.  I look forward to seeing how they are balanced. 
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
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Re: Mistborn
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2008, 10:49:28 AM »
Pretty simple principle at work. If a mistborn is a 1 in 10,000 allomancer, the fighty-type player gets to be a 1 in 10,000 swordsman.

Anyone care to speculate how unspeakably badass a 1 in 10,000 swordsman is? I'm thinking pretty badass myself. Terms like 'incomparable artist' and 'unstoppable juggernaught' come to mind.

You set a power level that manages the high end characters, and then you elevate everyone to that balance point.
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