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Author Topic: Life, the World, and Everything. (Social Issues)  (Read 9903 times)
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« Reply #675 on: April 27, 2015, 01:32:10 AM »

Today sucked, tired of life, will give a fuck later.
The End.
I've got Scotch to share.

Feel better.

Thanks mate.

As you can probably guess, because lol Lib, I don't drink as A) I've got enough vices already, B) alcoholics in the family, and C) booze, despite all the implications to the contrary, ain't free. Tongue

Kind of like how all those buckos who think a gun in every house would make the nation safer ain't giving them away for free. What a deplorable lack of social responsibility. Roll Eyes

Firearms and self-defense.
"Only 16 percent of the women who had been abused, but not murdered, had guns in their homes, whereas 51 percent of the murder victims did. In fact, not a single study to date has shown that the risk of any crime including burglary, robbery, home invasion, or spousal abuse against a female is decreased through gun ownership. Though there are examples of women using a gun to defend themselves, they are few and far between, and not statistically significant."

But here's Harvard:

Quote from:  Harvard Injury Control Research Center
"We use epidemiological theory to explain why the “false positive” problem for rare events can lead to large overestimates of the incidence of rare diseases or rare phenomena such as self-defense gun use. We then try to validate the claims of many millions of annual self-defense uses against available evidence. We find that the claim of many millions of annual self-defense gun uses by American citizens is invalid."

It's kind of like your traffic example: the really outrageous offenders stand out, but despite how memorable they are they're still far in the minority.

Re: Civil Forfeiture.
And like that, we agree. Cool
This is a bad fucking idea on just about every level.
Bad for Police, bad for citizens, bad for the culture, bad for the nation.

Ditto Fines as a Funding.

Bad. Idea.

Agreed on Drug Prohibition. The War on Drugs keeps the cartels in business. I don't necessarily oppose the ends, but the means are a gigantic failure. Also let's not forget the WoD was started by Nixon as a means of giving the finger to his many youthful, dope-smokin' American protesters. It had little/nothing to do with addressing a problem and I learned recently that, if I can bother to do the research again I'll post it, just about every previous bit of drug prohibition legislation was aimed at some similarly troublesome demographic at the time.

Good times. Tongue

Vermont has .3 murders per 100,000 people with 42% of citizens owning a firearm.
Arizona has 3.6 with 41.1% owning.

I'm not seeing your point mate except that Vermont is far safer than Arizona.

Mexico and Nigera have 15 and 1.5 guns per 100 people using this chart again and 20+ murders per 100,000 so again I'm not seeing the logic.

Syria is ...fucked. Gun murder stats aren't even worth looking up in a country that broken.

Also, where's your source on how harsh weapons controls laws are by country? I don't play with rumors.

"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
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« Reply #676 on: April 27, 2015, 05:08:52 PM »

I'm glad we agree on civil forfiture.

Vermont has .3 murders per 100,000 people with 42% of citizens owning a firearm.
Arizona has 3.6 with 41.1% owning.

I'm not seeing your point mate except that Vermont is far safer than Arizona.
Probably that gun control, or its lack, does not always correlate.  A lack of gun control is not a guarantee of less violent crime.  That said, I think Massachusetts demonstrated that more gun control is not the solution to the problems of violent crime:  Following a comprehensive gun control act in 1998, violent crime rose.

(click to show/hide)
  TL;DR  American use firearms to successfully defend themselves against crime at least as often as firearms are used in crime, and up to 50 times as often.  (I consider the 2.5 million figure unlikely.)  And less gun control in Chicago lets law abiding citizens legally stop guys like this.  (Not that anecdotes are data, but this is a vast improvement over jerkasses shooting up crowds and escaping.)

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
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« Reply #677 on: April 27, 2015, 06:10:31 PM »

Really, I should get wise and stop bringing up the US and homicide rates.
I increasingly lack the stomach to finish a fight that big. Tongue

I'm also trying to break my habit of tilting at windmills because frankly I break before they do.

That said....

So they've got 1/4 our homicides and 3 times the death by firearms rate. That actually supports the case that possession of a firearm is more likely to result in a death -not a self-defense shooting or suicide, as you state.

There are fewer guns and they produce far more deaths expressed as per weapon. That doesn't say to me that Brits are more homicidal, it says that they're not giving to collecting or hoarding like we are. Fewer guns equaling more deaths means they're just not as popular in the culture unless the owner's going to kill someone.

Or consider the opposite expression.
If tomorrow there were no guns in the UK or the US (because unicorn magic) and crime stats didn't otherwise vary the United Kingdom would see triple the reduction in homicides that the United States would. That's not an argument for firearms increasing public safety.

I appreciate the effort put into doing research though, and I came up with about the same results.
UK: 6.6 weapons per million; 9.5k guns.
US: 88.8 / 3.6 million

I doubt it's any increased likely hood of violence; the UK has a quarter the US's average annual homicides with (and this made me laugh) 21% youth ages 15-24 unemployment compared to the US's 17.3%.

So ~3.7% more kids -volatile, horny, stupid kids, out of work and it's still a safer place.

It's a little staggering to me. We're four times as murderous and greatly more given to improvisation. I do agree that compared to that lawful firearms ownership isn't nearly so important but we end up in with the same question: do less guns make a society safer?

It's true that firearms ownership is trending up while crime in general is trending down, but crime's been trending down anyway for reasons not apparently connected to how religious the US is, nor it's changes in GDP, nor the presence or absence the The Patriot Act, or anything specific in general. Deterrence doesn't matter, more weapons doesn't matter, etc etc etc -it's an enigma.

And while the truth is that societies with fewer guns are safer that they have less weapons isn't necessarily why.

Here's an odd stat: despite having ~32 weapons per 100 citizens (#8 globally) Uruguay has 7.9 homicides per 100,000 citizens.

And that's a strong case for weapons correlating to safety, except that A) 7.9 is still Iraq high and B) Kazakhstan has a 7.8 per hundred-thou with 1.3 firearms per 100 people.

So Kazakhstan is a great place to get stabbed or beaten dead and guns will play almost no role at all in one's end.

It also has a 5% Unemployment Rate with about the same number under the local Poverty Line so who the hell knows why.

So yeah, there is a fair argument that How someone's killed isn't nearly as important as Why ...except for all those examples of places that're doing better in every other index besides homicide rates.

(My personal hypothesis is the gradual degradation of "Otherness" in US society. We're all gradually becoming "people" to each other to greater degrees and thus are more likely to depend on each other and less inclined towards seeing one another as an enemy or potential resource. *shrug*)

I admit: I'm slowly coming around to seeing how firearms possession in a society isn't necessarily why it is or isn't safer, but there's still the problem of why we're so much worse and if our collective gun-lust is a cause or a symptom.

I've had the benefit in my life to, at some point, live in the Republic of Ireland, Scotland and Eastern UK.  I will say this.  You can look at the guns all you want.  They won't say much.  Take a look at how groups of Americans treat other groups of americans or are expected to be treated / treat, and you may start to get a look at why America is a bunch of social B.S. wrapped in a old piece of Freedom Bread.  In comparison, while not completely void of such interactions, my time across the pond was far more civilized. 
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« Reply #678 on: April 27, 2015, 06:46:52 PM »


Well screw you, you commie pinko marsupial!

Screw you and the wombat you rode in on!


We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming. - Werner von Braun
Right now you have no idea how lucky you are that I am not a sociopath. - A sign seen above my desk.
There's no upside in screwing with things you can't explain. - Captain Roy Montgomery
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« Reply #679 on: April 27, 2015, 07:00:17 PM »


Well screw you, you commie pinko marsupial!

Screw you and the wombat you rode in on!


LOL.  Hey.  Don't get me wrong.  I love stars, stripes and the lady liberty who can walk down NYC if we give her mood slime!, but we got some social issues that we DESPERATELY need to address.  

And yes.. we do have a cousin who is unspoken.  Though.. he's red.. and not pink.  And.. he's a bear.  Not a Marsupial.

[Edit: ginormous display-breaking pic deleted - A-C]
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 08:44:32 PM by Andy-C » Logged
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