Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 22, 2014, 01:07:15 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

+  Crafty Games Forum
|-+  Community
| |-+  Off-Topic
| | |-+  [Civ: BE]Harmony, Supremacy, or Purity? [Discussion]
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Go Down Print
Author Topic: [Civ: BE]Harmony, Supremacy, or Purity? [Discussion]  (Read 568 times)
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2014, 02:18:36 PM »

I guess part of my hesitancy is that while ageless beings might be fun to talk to, and I'm near-cripplingly terrified of my own mortality some days, I still tend to think of the pressures of impending death have a huge role in the human condition. Its 2 or 3 of the maybe six absolutely pivotal stage-changers in life. I question whether being without it will have the impetus to mature in any fashion we would recognize as human.

I means seriously, what if no one you ever knew died? How many spurs to act, to improve, to carry on in the name of the dearly departed do we lose? How focused is the average member of society when you take away the strict necessity to get it done before the reaper comes calling? What do you get when every impulse to pass on your heritage, to sacrifice for your offspring is outdated chaff? And really, where does the moral calculus settle out on the question of self-sacrifice? What is an immortal willing to die for?

Many of these paths turn us into elves, and there's a fair argument that elves are for the most part useless.
Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
Valentina
Control
******
Posts: 1987



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2014, 08:09:44 PM »

Well, there's physical maturity which impacts psychological maturity. Both of those are, barring certain rare medical disorders, inevitable. Everyone grows up. They don't get a choice. They might not achieve majority in the eyes of their society, but that's a different many-splendored problem.

Heh, if nobody I ever knew died I'd kill myself. Buncha nosey gits, they is.

Are Elves useless?
Huh. Depends.
I look at the "Elf Stage" as one in which balance in population pressures, environmental impact, and social maturity is achieved. Past the invasion for resources stage, past the various pretenses at social darwinism, past the tacit acceptance that anyone is disposable. Life on the individual and social level is no longer driven by necessity and everyone who demanded there be fighting about getting along is wiser, gone, or dead. Yay.
What's there left to do? Learn. Explore. Build. As long as one can avoid getting too comfortable in their leafy bower there is Space, and it's full of neat stuff. There's also genetic mastery, particle physics, FTL travel...

I wonder if part of the "Our Elves Are Useless" trope is that A) we never really get much of these civilizations at their heights and B) authorial/genre limitations.
Point A is "10,000 years of stability -no wars, no famines, no plagues, no chaos no problem." In most fantasy narratives this time blurs by because it's not interesting. I get that, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen and doens't matter. Or wasn't critical. Even without needing it ASAP somebody will want to play soldier or at least get pad to cycle the defenses once in a while so it's unlikley to me that there will be any period of genuine defenselesnes. (Putting aside cultural taboos it's pretty damn dim to look at the longbow as the pinnacle of weapon's technology for one. Or even nukes. They're dirty and indiscrminate -can we improve on that? I think Star Trek had a pretty good apogee in the starship phaser bank with the "we can hit any number of targets bigger then a paperback book simultaneously and fuck weather because the only limitation is the hemisphere" boast. It's a bloody unlikely occurence, but shoot for that and see where you end up.)

Another notable feature in the usual Elven Empire is the lack of the destitute, the unwanted and the enslaved. If it's true that the best measure of a nation's greatness is how it treats it's weakest members then the Elves are usually winning at Civilization.

(One thing that makes me want to punch a clown is when the nobility are twitchy for stimulation and decide a war of attrition would spice things up (Blizzard looooves this trope). Hey, Crown Prince Fuckstick: you don't get to decide for everyone because monarchies are a proven Bad Idea. If one vain, bored asshole can end millenia of peace then there's still work to be done in terms of cultural perfection. If the problem is You're Not Epic Enough, then you, not the lack of suffering, are the problem, and you're well short of the Elf Stage even if you ARE elves.)

And B is Spaaaaaaaace. Tolkien's inheritors are pretty damn myopic. The Lord of the Rings isn't even global in scope, So if there are places people haven't had a goofy selfie at there's still a lot more to do. Or look at Mass Effect's Asari as a kind of Blue Space Elf. They keep busy trying to keep everyone else from wiping each other and them out. "Encounter (also Sex-Up) and Elevate All Sapient Life to Post-Struggle" is the kind of project sure to keep one busy for a while. Wink
I don't think Elves Are Useless, or even close, without some dramatically uncharitable assumptions about the value of life and how to give it meaning. And usually some kind of Fall event that annihilates most of the population and destabilizes the tech base.

I also am curious as to what is entailed by "useless"? Can't fight? Can't learn? Can't experience? Can't change?

As for being deathless, I don't know. It'll probably happpen, but remain a luxury availible to too few to matter overmuch. The human brain has, AFAIK, finite memory. You'll live and experience 'til you're full, and then while you're struggling the new impulse-directed hair drier someone will kill you. Not an optimal solution, but eh. There's always some wrinkle keeping the process from being too easy, I'm sure immortality will have it's ass-pains. Before we even get to the stage of questioning motivation without a deadline we still have to deal with the billions of lives under-empowered far beyond merely not wanting to get out of bed today.
Logged

"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
MilitiaJim
Control
******
Posts: 4298



View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 09:05:53 AM »

I think it really depends on the individuals.  If we don't have to worry about the lower half of the needs hierarchy, I now have time to perfect the things I do enjoy.  Personally I'm going to spend a lot of time with weapons.  My partners go for art and building gizmos, respectively.  Of course I do enjoy my miniatures when I have time, so I may also be a sculptor and painter.  Of course if heading off to explore somewhere were an option...  Once the kids are able to survive without us, we probably would.

I like The Golden Age for an example of what can happen when a society is past scrambling for survival.  (Though I would not call Phaethon Radamanthus an "everyman.")
Logged

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
Agent 333
Control
******
Posts: 2030



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 11:13:44 AM »

Immortality certainly changes the equation on what us mortals would call Generational Ships. Who cares if it takes 100 years to get to a nearby star if you're going to live ten times that anyway? As long as there's adequate distractions and gravity aboard, it'd be a much less daunting proposition...
Logged

When all your problems are nails, all your tools start looking like hammers.
MilitiaJim
Control
******
Posts: 4298



View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2014, 12:58:29 PM »

Immortality certainly changes the equation on what us mortals would call Generational Ships. Who cares if it takes 100 years to get to a nearby star if you're going to live ten times that anyway? As long as there's adequate distractions and gravity aboard, it'd be a much less daunting proposition...
Wasn't human life expectancy up to nearly 200 in Mass Effect?  There are lots of things that shift in their priority based on your timescale.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 01:05:18 PM by MilitiaJim » Logged

"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
RusVal
Control
******
Posts: 1454


There are no ends. Only new beginnings.


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2014, 11:09:55 PM »

I find it interesting to see the Purity approach being considered at all without being saddled with some sort of neo-luddite stigma. Purity is in the same general category as Star Trek's Federation: a high tech society trying to preserve what is good about humans along with enduring what is kinda stinky. Various trans-human visions have utterly dominated the genre, and in particular Alpha Centauri's endgame is all about the End of the Human Race from the perspective of most humans.

As to the approach, throw me in the neo-luddite pool.  Personally, I don't see humanity giving up their ... forgive me, but their humanity to colonize things.  Robots as a vanguard, sure.  Us as robots?  Perhaps a fringe group, but not the bulk of humanity.  The targeted adaptation crowd would be a larger group in my opinion.

What I'm finding interesting is the assumption that Purity means "no modification whatsoever".  Remember, one of the technologies Purity can get includes "reverting humanity to an earlier genome stripped of all its flaws, like the promethean idea of the ultimate idea of human".  Imagine, for instance, a population on Captain America's super-soldier serum.  Or, basically, Khan being right.
Or that Purity is Neo-Luddite, when they can get "information and communication sciences, so lots of orbital stuff, data collection storage and analysis. Imagine a world run by the unholy alliance of Twitter and Wikipedia.  Another analogy would be the Hitchhiker's Guide, data flows freely and the Purity player will find lots there, like human archivism and holding onto what came from Earth."
So, essentially, not "trans"human so much as "super"human.  Or even elves, possibly.
Logged

"Why don't you wear a helmet?  I feel anonymous and disposable..." -VGCats

"What is this, a bad spy movie?!  You two are going to get us all killed!" -Jack Carver, Far Cry
RusVal
Control
******
Posts: 1454


There are no ends. Only new beginnings.


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2014, 06:17:20 PM »

So we have a proper look at how Civ BE will imagine the three affinities:

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Personally, I think Purity's soldier needs some tweaking, make it look more like a progression.  Not much, just some tweaks to the helmet and the paddings.
Logged

"Why don't you wear a helmet?  I feel anonymous and disposable..." -VGCats

"What is this, a bad spy movie?!  You two are going to get us all killed!" -Jack Carver, Far Cry
Valentina
Control
******
Posts: 1987



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2014, 06:22:26 PM »

A considerable stature increase happening there -'course I love Hulking so it's cool aesthetically, but looks like everyone goes for Bigger and Badder eventually.
Logged

"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
RusVal
Control
******
Posts: 1454


There are no ends. Only new beginnings.


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2014, 09:41:36 PM »

A considerable stature increase happening there -'course I love Hulking so it's cool aesthetically, but looks like everyone goes for Bigger and Badder eventually.

It's probably meant to signify the increase in power, like how XCOM's equipment gets progressively bulkier the more powerful it gets.  It's good for the god-view games like this use.
Logged

"Why don't you wear a helmet?  I feel anonymous and disposable..." -VGCats

"What is this, a bad spy movie?!  You two are going to get us all killed!" -Jack Carver, Far Cry
Agent 333
Control
******
Posts: 2030



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2014, 01:40:34 AM »

Anybody else think the Purity and Harmony third tier guys look a bit like Tau Fire Warriors?
Logged

When all your problems are nails, all your tools start looking like hammers.
RusVal
Control
******
Posts: 1454


There are no ends. Only new beginnings.


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2014, 02:05:28 AM »

Anybody else think the Purity and Harmony third tier guys look a bit like Tau Fire Warriors?

Um, no?  Supremacy, maybe, but not the other two.
Logged

"Why don't you wear a helmet?  I feel anonymous and disposable..." -VGCats

"What is this, a bad spy movie?!  You two are going to get us all killed!" -Jack Carver, Far Cry
Morgenstern
Control
******
Posts: 5206



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2014, 03:05:13 AM »

  I have to admit that after reading the mention of hulking I just blithely assumed those were Talents tucked inside those spoiler tags Cheesy.

  Hmmm... good project, but I have way too many projects already. Tongue
Logged

At your own pace: Do. It. Now.
How about some pie? - Heroes of the Expanse
RusVal
Control
******
Posts: 1454


There are no ends. Only new beginnings.


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2014, 04:49:52 PM »

  I have to admit that after reading the mention of hulking I just blithely assumed those were Talents tucked inside those spoiler tags Cheesy.

  Hmmm... good project, but I have way too many projects already. Tongue


Oop, sorry.  You might get your chance, though.  Supposedly they are trying to re-invent unit customization from Alpha Centauri by using a unique upgrade system.  This way units from two factions using the same Affinity can be wildly different from each other, depending on the tech you research and how you apply it.
Logged

"Why don't you wear a helmet?  I feel anonymous and disposable..." -VGCats

"What is this, a bad spy movie?!  You two are going to get us all killed!" -Jack Carver, Far Cry
Valentina
Control
******
Posts: 1987



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2014, 01:58:13 PM »

So, any new thoughts from all and sundry?
Logged

"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
Valentina
Control
******
Posts: 1987



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2014, 03:06:19 PM »

For personal, ultimately religious, reasons, I believe humanity goes beyond supporting basic drives.  Thus, at the end of the day, we're probably simply going to have to disagree. 

Actually, now I'm curious.
If you'd be so generous please explain what specifically you believe and why you believe it.
I'm versed enough in the whole Mosiac Monotheism suite to have the general corners of it defined, but I'm interested to know what your specific take is. As desired I can also refrain from any personal commentary, and you are welcome to PM me if you'd like.

Tracker6, anyone else.
See above! Smiley

Thinking on what I said here's my general deal; independent of what anyone else believes, and posted because I try to lead by example.
(click to show/hide)

I am constantly interested in knowing not just what people think, but how and why.

Thanks for your time.  Cool
Logged

"Cui bono?" -Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla, 127 BCE.

"Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders" -Martin Luthor, 1483-1546.
Pages: 1 [2] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!